Armed Security folks....duty gun?

[papajohn428]

I'm constantly amazed at the variance in what Armed Security Officers are carrying while on duty.  Some companies furnish the guns, others make you buy your own.  Duty Ammo?  I talked to a guy recently who was limited to carrying 38 non +P round nose ammo, and his company had issued him six rounds of the old widowmaker load, a 158 lead round nose.  I offered him some Silvertips, but he declined, because his company had decided "Hollow Points are Evil!"   :eek:

Where I work (St. Louis) I am limited by local ordinance to 38 Special in my company-issued gun.  :evil:  I carry a S&W Model 10-5 with 130-grain Hydra-Shoks, plus Silvertips and Nyclads as spares.

In St. Louis County, officers are allowed to carry automatics, 9mm or 40, with additional (Expensive!) training,  ONLY if they work in a bank.   :roll:

What kind of Mickey Mouse rules do the rest of you have to put up with?

Do you do anything to supplement the equipment you have?  I'd love to hear from all of my fellow guards, watchmen, armored car folk, et al.

Too bad we can't make our company presidents walk a beat or stand a post in a crappy neighborhood at 2 A.M......I bet we'd get some new equipment!

Papajohn the Limited Liability

[Mohawk]

I'm actually one of the lucky ones. Were allowed any revolver .38 and above or any semi 9mm or above. Any ammo we want. Personally, I am still a fan of the .38 LRN, and happen to carry it sometimes because I can carry it in a lighter revolver. Without getting off topic, YES they do work. I would be leary of the "One Shot Stop" stuff. Observe the Lee Harvey Oswald shooting by Jack Ruby.Any round carried by 80% of the world's police forces for over 60yrs is gonna fail quite often anyway. Col. Charles Askins loved this round. Anyway, off my soap box.  :grin:
 My main guns are two m19 S&W revolvers. A blued 19-3 or a nickel 19-5 for wet weather. Ammo is either .38 LRN or .357 SWC.
 I think it depends more on company than state. I too have known guys here that are strictly prohibited from carrying anything but what the company issues. I think the more "national" a company is the stricter they are.

[Lawdog]

papajohn428,

Maybe I can give you a little different view point, I own my own security company and all of my guards are armed.  Up until 6 months ago I used to issue Glock 24’s(.40 S&W) as their duty weapons.  Now I switched them all over to Glock 21’s.  I did this for two reasons, first I have more faith in the .45 as a stopper cartridge and second the local law enforcement agencies have changed over to the .45.  Here in California all armed guards are required to qualify once a year but my guards must qualify quarterly or they are off work until they do qualify.  There are many security companies out there that are afraid of being sued for using hollow point ammo and it is for that reason they don’t allow their guards to carry them.  I issue 230 gr. Federal Hydra-Shok JHP ammo and I don’t let my personal use any other type of ammo(no reloads, period).  My reasons for doing this is because I HAVE walked a beat, stood post at less than desirable locations and spent just over twenty years behind the badge before I was forced into retirement.  But I do understand where you are coming from.  There are a number of companies out there that need to get a clue.  Take care while out there.  Small groups and tight lines to you.  Lawdog
 

[Mohawk]

Lawdog has a good point. Getting a clue is most of the battle. They teach you how to shoot but forget to teach you to survive. If you don't find cover and create distance any gun is worthless. I know I keep straying off topic, sorry :oops:  Been shot at, don't like it. Cover saved me. While on the beat I take note where good cover is located through out my patrol route. One advantage we have is that unlike the police, we return to the same locations time and again so we are more likely to be at an advantage should something happen. Keep it safe out there, and like Lawdog stated, civil reprocussions can be severe. Hats off to you owners out there.

[leverfan]

I don't know what the rules are now, for sure, but about 10 years ago, S.O. in Washington had to carry company guns, not personal guns, and both companies that I worked for specified .38 Special ammo.  At one company, there was simply no choice as to what gun you carried, they gave you an old 4" S&W at the beginning of each shift, and it was loaded with 158 grain RN (This was actually a nationally known armored transport outfit).  

At another company, you could buy your own gun, but then you leased it to the company, so it was their's on paper, but you could keep it when you left the company.  In the meantime, it stayed in a locker at work when you were off duty.  When each guy went out the door at the beginning of shift, his gun was loaded with standard issue .38, but many of us bought .357 mags, and ammo was promptly changed over in the patrol car.  

Even the "unarmed" security at that company carried, but they were very careful about concealing it.  They weren't licensed to be armed, but they worked jobs that put them in harm's way, so there just wasn't much choice.  Of course, we worked with police all the time, and it wouldn't have been good for an "unarmed" officer if a cop spotted his gun.  It's one thing to have to act to save your life, and then face the aftermath, but it's another to get thrown in jail just for being prepared to save your life.

On my college campus, none of the officers were allowed to carry, and I don't believe that many of them ever attempted to.  Their job was to observe and report, while not putting themselves in danger.  They were issued Kevlar vests, radios, and mag-lights, nothing else.  Most training was for first aid or fire response, not self-defense.  Even the self-defense training they did receive focussed on when and where you can legally belt someone with a flashlight, without having the university get sued.

[Lawdog]

leverfan,

Their job was to observe and report, while not putting themselves in danger.

Basically until 911 happened that was what guards did.  Now everything has changed.  Guards are required to be armed(and not just side arms - shotguns and rifles are issued now at certain locations thanks to Homeland Security) and Kevlar vests are standard issue by certain companies.  Requirements set forth by Homeland Security has caused a number of companies to stop operations at strategic locations.  Lawdog
 

[leverfan]

Lawdog-

The "observe and report" duties of the officers at my alma mater remain unchanged, to the best of my knowledge.  In fact, I'll eat my sheep skin if the liberal administration at that university ever let the security officers have the means to effectively defend themselves.  The King riots were a hoot for the unarmed officers working that campus, but nothing changed then.

[dawei]

leverfan,

Their job was to observe and report, while not putting themselves in danger.

Basically until 911 happened that was what guards did.  Now everything has changed.  Guards are required to be armed(and not just side arms - shotguns and rifles are issued now at certain locations thanks to Homeland Security) and Kevlar vests are standard issue by certain companies.  Requirements set forth by Homeland Security has caused a number of companies to stop operations at strategic locations.  Lawdog
 

http://www.pcswa.com

The company issues revolvers. This decision is based upon several factors; some of which are, but not limited to:

Simpler To Operate, Cheaper vs Semi Auto, Ammo costs, TIME SPENT QUALIFYING & RECERTIFYING, Standardization, Diversity of Armed Force, etc. Most of the guns are S&W Mdl 10's & Taurus Mdl 82's = Idiot Proof. The company realizes however that "ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL"! Because of this other revolvers issued are S&W 36, 60, 586, 686, etc.

Officers may use their own weapon within the following parameters:

REVOLVER: 38 or 357; 2"-6" Barrel; No Single Actions; Blued, Stainless, Nickled, or Parkerized; Fixed or Adjustable Sights.

AMMO: For 38's 125 or 158gr  HP, NHP, JHP. 357 125gr JHP. Factory Only, Std, +P, or +P+, (38's)

SEMI-AUTO: 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W, or 45ACP; DAO; Not Striker Fired; no Glocks, Sigmas, or the like; 3"-5" Barrel.

AMMO: 9mm, 115 or 124gr JHP; 10mm, 180gr JHP; 40S&W, 180gr JHP; 45ACP, 230gr JHP. Factory Only, Std, +P, or +P+.

THE TRAINING I'VE RECEIVED IS HANDS DOWN BETTER THAN WHAT I RECEIVED AS A COP FROM THE Wa State Criminal Justice Training Center. We have 600+ S/O's of which about 75 of us are armed.  

[dawei]

I don't know what the rules are now, for sure, but about 10 years ago, S.O. in Washington had to carry company guns, not personal guns, and both companies that I worked for specified .38 Special ammo.  At one company, there was simply no choice as to what gun you carried, they gave you an old 4" S&W at the beginning of each shift, and it was loaded with 158 grain RN (This was actually a nationally known armored transport outfit). LARGE SNIP.........

Sounds like Dunbar® Armored. Issue you a 38, 6 rounds, & NOTHING ELSE!

[papajohn428]

The saddest part of the Security gig is the lack of training given.  Lots of places just hand you a 38,, a holster and 6 rounds of antique-looking ammo, and send you to a post.  I spent 14 years in LE, and our administrators would rather we went unarmed than untrained.  In St. Louis, there's an 8-hour revolver course, that's it, and half the people I "graduated" with couldn't hit their own silhouette target at 7 yards half the time.  I even worked with a guy who told me that if the SHTF, to hit the ground, because he was just gonna start shooting.  I told him if he touched his weapon while I was there, I'd shoot him myself!    :evil:

Having CCW folks wandering around armed doesn't scare me, but the lack of training does.  I recently shot my best (revolver) score ever in qualifying, a 494 out of 500.  There were seven other guards in my re-qual class, and I don't think any of them shot over a 350.  :eek:  Scary?  You bet.  

Since training costs money, my company doesn't allow the carrying of batons, pepper spray, or even handcuffs!  The district manager came by one day, saw that we all had cuffs, and told us to leave them at home, "so nobody gets hurt".  What does he think we do out here, play shuffleboard?  And he's got 24 years of LE behind him.  

Administrators who have forgotten what the street is like will get more people killed than anything else.  And since all we have that we're allowed to use is a gun, every problem starts to look like it needs to be shot at!

And given the lack of training, the odds of most of these guys hitting anything but innocent bystanders is pretty frightening.  Now you see why I work alone!  It's safer.

Papajohn the Penetrable

[Mohawk]

I know what you mean by lack of training. Some of us guys and gals with more experience try to help the newbies. They do fine on the range but it usually ends about there. You can usually tell they are new when they find out many men have taken .357,.41.,and .44 magnum rounds by the multitudes and walked themselves to the ambulance, stating "Is that all you cops have for me!".

[dawei]

The saddest part of the Security gig is the lack of training given.  Lots of places just hand you a 38,, a holster and 6 rounds of antique-looking ammo, and send you to a post.  I spent 14 years in LE, and our administrators would rather we went unarmed than untrained.  In St. Louis, there's an 8-hour revolver course, that's it, and half the people I "graduated" with couldn't hit their own silhouette target at 7 yards half the time.  I even worked with a guy who told me that if the SHTF, to hit the ground, because he was just gonna start shooting.  I told him if he touched his weapon while I was there, I'd shoot him myself!    :evil:

SNIP.................
Papajohn the Penetrable

John........  I have to agree with you as a general rule; so many companies are just fly by night so to speak. I am indeed fortunate however my company (Armed Officers); receive an ENORMOUS amount of training. Our "Self Defense/Use of Force" Manual is larger, more detailed and thorough than many local PDs!

I think a lot of that has to do with the owner's philosophy: Do it right the first time; don't do it over. Secondly we have had several shootings over the years and learned & improved from each one. Thirdly we use FATS (Firearms Tactical Simulation) extensively. Lastly we have a "USE OF FORCE" committee that is constantly reevaluating & upgrading policy & procedures.

In addition; ALL armed officers MUST train monthly @ the range or they have their credentials pulled!

If you decide to come west join us!

[Ridge Runner]

I have worked for an Armored car company for over 2 years. Started on the road, but eventually made my way into the Vault.

The company issued S&W 38's with bullets that were probably issued in the 80's and still being circulated for the guards. The S&W looked like they had never been cleaned. Rust was visible. The guys were never allowed to take them home to practice with them. They only were allowed to shoot them at their qualification.

We were also allowed to carry our own firearms. Only allowed to carry a minimum of 9mm, and the max we could carry was a .45. If you had a .357 however, you could only carry .38's in it. They could be double action only. Many of us picked up Glocks.

The company then banned Glocks because of the lack of an external safety. Those of us who had Glocks were grandfathered. All new employees could not carry one.

Then the company banned all high capacity magazines. Despite them being legal it sent the "wrong Message". We could however, carry as many spare magazines that we wanted.......makes no sense to me at all. I carried my high capacity magazines.

Then they restricted our ammo selection to two, Federal HydraShock or Corbon.  We were al least allowed to carry hollow point.

No shotguns were allowed in the trucks and no back up weapons of anykind. I carried a  Walther PP pistol as a back up with a handcuff key )just in case). My life was worth more than a couple of stupid rules. Two shotguns were kept in the vault, Mavericks that were rust buckets. No one was ever given training on them.

We only qualified once a year. No other training. I left the job because someone was going to be killed because of poor eqipment and non-existant training.


Any other questions?

[papajohn428]

We used the FATS Simulator at the last PD I worked for, and it was a real eye-opener for a lot of the cops who didn't "Think Tactically".  The company I work for is pretty big, and multi-national, I know they could afford some real training tools, but I doubt that'll ever happen, unless their guards start getting shot or are involved in a lot of shootings, which is unlikely.  They publish a quarterly magazine, and you never see an armed guard in any of the pictures, they act like we're the bustard stepchildren.  Lots of people getting awards for putting out fires or catching a burglar but nothing about guards using any kind of force, they act like all we do is stand around with our thumbs up our noses.  If Al-Quaida starts hitting public buildings and utilities, there's gonna be more than a 38 on my hip!  Armed citizens don't get any media recognition for deterring bad guys, I bet armed guards wouldn't either!

Now if I shot a terrorist with an ASSAULT WEAPON....... :eek:

I'd be on the cover of Time magazine!

PJ

[dawei]

LARGE SNIP...............

Any other questions?

Where are you located; we are looking for a few good men (and women).

[Ridge Runner]

Dawei -

I am in Maine.....what have ya got? I liked the job but the lack of any planning or training really bothered me.

[dawei]

Dawei -

I am in Maine.....what have ya got? I liked the job but the lack of any planning or training really bothered me.

I'll send to a PM.

[Can Chaser Kate]

I used to work in the Security Field, but I decided to not ever do that again after a bad experience with it.
Just to let y'all know what we were allowed to carry, we were allowed to carry our CAS Guns if that was what we wanted to do. The Company I worked for didn't have a Problem with it.
And that is here in AZ. so, I guess I got Lucky in that Respect.