Author Topic: Procedure shoot/swab for consistency? (Read 1026 times)

papabear · « **on:** July 05, 2004, 04:49:42 AM »

I'm doing load work on Knight BK 92 .54, no sabots. I "sometimes" have 1st shots out of clean barrel a few inches off from remaining shots in group. (this never happened with sabots). I normally run 2-3 patches between shots, so I would say my barrel is "partly fouled" for other shots.

What is the best procedure for group testing? If I find that a fouled barrel is the only way to get the first shot the same as 2nd shots, how do I foul a barrel and yet safely hunt with it for several days without corrosion inside the barrel?

Also, ith sabots, I have normally left gun loaded for several days, even a week, and never had a misfire. Have I just been lucky; could moisture get into the powder over several days and does anyone follow a different procedure while hunting?
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iisabigone · « **Reply #1 on:** July 05, 2004, 05:15:44 AM »

Hey papabear I noticed your post and Im kinda wondering the same thing. I got a white gseries back in November and really the slip fit system.

I have 5 knights that i like to shoot too but Im tired of spit patching between shots in order to achieve good consistant accuracy. I have been reading all I can about shooting conicals out of my knight in here and many other sites.

Im hoping you will get some replies on your questions from more experienced conical shooters.

I have been shooting the sabots since the mk 85 first hit the market and have had good success hunting with them. However, I liked the way the big conical performed on game, everything I shot with them was DRT.

I have some powerpunches in 440 and some 460 no escuses .503 that Im thinking of working with when things cool off some here. I have switched over to triple 7 loose for all my rifles.

I hope we here from some of the other guys.

iisabigone

iisabigone · « **Reply #2 on:** July 05, 2004, 05:19:47 AM »

papa I have been reading posts over on huntamerica on this subject and may ask some questions to some of the conical shooters when I formule a plan of load development. Lots of good reading there too on this subject

iisabigone · « **Reply #3 on:** July 05, 2004, 06:03:19 AM »

papabear by the way before i load my white I drop 30 grains of powder down the tube and pop a cap to foul my the bore before I load to hunt. Im assuming this will work with my knights too, but Im not sure.

With my white after I hunt I pull it apart and push the load out of the barrel then clean it. I dont like to leave my rifle loaded between hunts. The triple seven is easy to clean with just water. Before my next hunt I foul the barrel with the 30grain charge and then reload.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #4 on:** July 05, 2004, 06:25:47 AM »

papa,
iisabigone,

I shoot a .504 White Whitetail Hunter I modified to a M97 by adding another action lug on the receiver. I shoot 460 grain NE conicals. I must foul the barrel before I shoot. I learned a trick or two. I got a can of Clean Shot I used a couple of years ago that does not shoot well in any of my rifles. It is non-corrosive. I dump 20 grains down, push a cleaning patch down, prime and shoot. Than I load her up ready for the hunt. I've keep her in this loaded condition for up to 3 weeks. She always goes boom!

Ok! Take some white teflon tape and cut a strip that will wrap one time and a little arround the base of the conical and load. Fire the first shot than load as always with no swabing.

Take two strips of teflon tape and cut about 1 inch long and lay them in a X across the muzzle than push the bullet and teflon strips down like using a teflon patch.

The first bullet should shoot out of a clean barrel with the follow up bullets all in the same poi.

Now as far as swabing with my White and using conicals, what swabing? The dirtier the better. No Swabing at all. That's why we're called Dirty White Boys!

Jules J.

papabear · « **Reply #5 on:** July 05, 2004, 07:09:05 AM »

iisabigone: since you use Triple Seven, why doesn't your bore corrode over a period of several days hunting if it is fouled? I once did not clean my rifle for several days (when using Pyrodex, I think) and it got some rust in it. I had to use J-B bore compound (an abrasive) and a lot of time to get it back in shape. That is why I have been (until now) hunting with a clean bore.

Surveyor: similar question, except you said you used Cleanshot for the "fouling". So it is completely non corrosive? How would you feel about doing the same 30 gr. "fouling" with Triple Seven or Pyrodex and leaving it in for a week?

Thanks, guys.

papabear · « **Reply #6 on:** July 05, 2004, 07:15:00 AM »

To iisabigone: I may have read your post incorrectly or did not understand it. When you say you unload it between hunts, I assumed that a "hunt" could last several days, which is what concerned me. Perhaps you meant each day is a separate hunt.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** July 05, 2004, 07:47:47 AM »

I maybe can shed a bit of light on this subject. I have hunted with both traditional and modern firearms, but a couple things remain constant no matter what you choose. Black powder fouling and its substitutes to one degree or another, all like to absorb moisture, IIRC the term is Hygroscopic, or some such. An example, Goex fouling left to the atmosphere in the pan of a flintlock will turn glossy with moisture in just a few mintues depending on the humidity level. The powder itself is not so bad, I've hunted up to 4 days with the same load in my flintlock using a toothpick in the touchhole when I wasn't hunting and a borebutter patched round ball in the bore and not had even the slightest hint of a hangfire when I finally did touch it off. If the powder is kept away from moisture, it'a a pretty safe bet it will work fine, and I've never had rust in my bores. Same applied to my inlines and caplock rifles, sealing them is a lot easier, when using conicals or sabots, I use a piece of duct tape on the muzzle and a piece of surgical tubing over the cap to keep moisture out. If you fire a fouler, you won't have a problem IF you keep moisture away from the bore. I could go on with more about the merits of keeping your firearm shootin in the wet weather but that's another subject. The basics are the same. In a nutshell, the fouling isn't corrosive unless it has a moisture source. This is one reason why I like borebutter, it won't ruin the powder charge like oil and it protects the bore when the powder and bore meet.

iisabigone · « **Reply #8 on:** July 05, 2004, 08:24:57 AM »

papabear I clean my rifle after getting home from each hunt. To me and my style of hunting that means within an hour of getting off of my stand. I typically hunt within a 20 minute drive of where I live.

I may get on stand and hunt in the morning then come home do some chores and then go again in the afternoon. In this instance I will not unload my rife just take off the cap when I get back to the truck and put a fresh cap on when I return to my hunting area.

On mornings I just hunt in the morning i tear it down and completely clean it when I get back home after each hunt.

On afternoon hunts when I get back home I tear it down and completely clean it.

Before I hunt with my guns shooting sabots I swab with clean patches to get all the oil out of my bore then bust 3 caps with the last cleaning patch on the jag against the breech plug before loading. I sight all my inlines shooting sabots in on a barrel in this condition. After the first shot I spit patch and dry patch then reload before loading the second round. If I have to shot more than once on a deer hunt something good has happened(2 bucks) or something bad(bad judgement or bad shot) has happened.

On my white I clean the bore bust a few caps then foul it with the 30grains before loading I dont swab my barrel between shots with my white. The dirtier it gets the better it shoots.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #9 on:** July 05, 2004, 08:43:02 AM »

Quote

Surveyor: similar question, except you said you used Cleanshot for the "fouling". So it is completely non corrosive? How would you feel about doing the same 30 gr. "fouling" with Triple Seven or Pyrodex and leaving it in for a week?

I have with Triple Seven. Never used Pyrodex. But never with Pyrodex because it's so corrosive.

I do keep my muzzle sealed with plastic wrap and rubber bands. I've gone for as long as 3 weeks as long as it's dry. If's it's very wet, than I'll shoot out at the end of the day and clean that night. Fouling shot in the morn, and load.

I may change over to the teflon tape thing after I do some more testing. I've read where orthers are having good results.

One thing to remember. These are muzzle loaders.

Jules J.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 05, 2004, 08:45:49 AM »

What I have done, is found a load that works with a clean barrel. The way it would be if I were going hunting. Cleaned and a patch ran down the barrel with bore butter. I run a clean patch to remove bore butter prior to loading. I sight my gun in with a clean barrel with bore butter and wiped with a clean patch every shot. Time consuming, but you don't have to worry about fouling the barrel before you go hunting. I have found even if I shoot a couple shots with a fouled barrel I am off by a little. This is the way I do it for hunting. Makes life easy for me.

iisabigone · « **Reply #11 on:** July 05, 2004, 10:04:41 AM »

Redhawk what kinda conicals are you shooting. What size or bullet diameter and what is your bore diameter?

I have a bunch of the 440 powerpunch and 460 no excuses. Im thinking of trying in my Knights. I think my bore diameter on the knights are .502.

Im thinking they may need a bore foul before loading like my whites.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 05, 2004, 01:44:48 PM »

Quote from: iisabigone

Redhawk what kinda conicals are you shooting. What size or bullet diameter and what is your bore diameter?

I have a bunch of the 440 powerpunch and 460 no excuses. Im thinking of trying in my Knights. I think my bore diameter on the knights are .502.

Im thinking they may need a bore foul before loading like my whites.

I have been shooting 350 gr. Maxi Hunter's and 385 gr. Hornady Great Plains. I started with them and found an accurate load and way to load them for hunting, and then moved on to shooting sabots with different bullet weights and also the power belts. In my Encore I have found the power belts to work extremely accurate. Now in my T/C Renegade I found the 385 gr. Hornady Great Plains to be most accurate with black powder. My Encore bore diameter is .503

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #13 on:** July 05, 2004, 02:01:31 PM »

iisabigone,

Jason on HA shoots the 460 grain NE's in his Knight very good. Funny! The Whites like a .503 in a .504 bore. The Knights like a .503 in a 5.02 bore.

Jason got some .502 sized 460 grain conicals and his Knight didn't like them at all.

I can shoot a .502 in my White fairly good. But the .503 to .504's work best. In fact there is nothing I found my White won't shoot. It just shoots some a little better than others. That's sabot or conicals.

Jules J.

sabotloader · « **Reply #14 on:** July 05, 2004, 02:51:04 PM »

I just kinda explined this on the Traditional side, I don't know if it is the rigt thing to but but it sure works for me....

This was a note to Crowfeather
CF, as for that first shot, remember that is out of a rifle that was stored and put away... I dry patched it before firing the first shot, but I also knew that it would not be indicative of the barrel, consequently I always go target shooting prior to hunting so I have that fouled barrel and unless I get the bore wet during hunting season I will not really clean it, I mean break it down clean, again until after hunting season. That is one of the beauties of T7 not being near as corrosive as BP. Most of the time I don't even unload it, it gets locked in a case in the toolbox in the truck. Again all of this is dependent on weather and what it has been through that particular day.

SURVEYOR, I am assuming you are talking about the breech plug if you are I think you might like the teflon thing - that is all that I use - the KEY to sucess for me is when wrapping the tape wrap it over the end of the business end, push it down to contact with your fingers - then when your breech plug enconters the barrel - snug it up just a bit - between the face of the breech plug - the teflon tape and the face of barrel you should get a great seal after that first shot. I have shot as many as 30 times and never loosed the plug took it home and with moderate pressure the plug comes loose.

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #15 on:** July 06, 2004, 03:59:47 AM »

Sabot,

No I was speaking about wraping conicals in teflon tape. I wrap, or 2 pieces across the muzzle like loading with a patch. Cayugad tried it awhile back with some loose bullet that wouldn't group for nothing. With the wrap he started getting MOA's. Paper patching with teflon tape. I've got some Moses .502's that weigh in at 460 grains. Great looking copper base bullet. Just a little too small I'm going to try this on. I'm also going to try it on all my conicals.

But it is grass season, and my wife has me building a 16x24 wood working shop. Time is not on my side.

On a side note. I've got a Super 91 ordered, and waiting for the maker to get back from Africa!

Jules

oneshotonekill · « **Reply #16 on:** July 06, 2004, 01:41:05 PM »

One problem with keeping the bore fouled is condensation. If you bring a cold gun into your warm home (or a warm vehicle) then take it back into the cold you will get condensation even if the bore is covered with plastic and the nipple is sealed. Once the condensation is in the bore it will be absorbed by the fouling and start working on rust formation. I do not like to leave a barrel fouled any longer than overnight. I have found loads that shoot well out of each of my ML's with a clean cold barrel. When I hunt I will leave a charge in the gun for up to 2 weeks as long as I have not shot the gun. Once I shoot it I will clean that day.

papabear · « **Reply #17 on:** July 07, 2004, 05:25:48 PM »

I certainly can agree with the last post about the potential for "condensation" to cause problems in a fouled barrel even if sealed. Here in an Iowa winter, we have to be careful about that. One time bringing a cold loaded muzzleloader into my warm motel room overnight caused some much condensation, which later turned to ice the next morning in the field, and the bolt (actually the "striker, I guess") on the Knight BK 92 would not move and it could not be fired. It took quite a while to break it down and get it free.

I have thought about the "inside the barrel" condensation, and usually I remember to keep my cold rifle outside. I would say it could be a problem under certain temperatures.

I appreciate all the posts on my original query; I am leaning towards trying to find a load that shoots out of a clean barrel the same as my 2nd fouled shot. If I have problems and need a fouled barrel, I have got enough ideas on how to keep it sealed up to prevent moisture getting to the powder, that I would feel confident going that way if I don't have large temperature differences just discussed.

Thanks to all for your ideas.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** July 07, 2004, 06:39:42 PM »

Something we've always done since as long as I can remember, probably due to optics be fogged originally I suppose, is to leave our weapons in the truck at night, we never bring em into a warm tent or cabin unless it's coming in for a cleaning. If it's got glass, it gets set in the corner where it's not likely to warm to fast. Just something that helps.