With all due respect to reloaders who have come before us...

[Questor]

...but those guys were crazy. I have read some old reloading articles lately that were totally hair raising.  My favorite was "if you double the powder charge, it stands to reason that you double the pressure." Oooo-eeee!

Then there was Elmer Keith who seemed to test loads by blowing up guns.  The thought process seemed to be something like this: Keep adding powder until the gun blows up. If you can find another gun that will contain the charge, then that gun is good, but the gun that blew up was to be derided as weak.


I wonder if the Darwin awards had a separate category for handloaders.

[TNrifleman]

Thankfully, all early handloaders were not as cavalier about "rolling your own" as some others seem to have been. BTW, we still have some rather nutty folks who handload their ammo. Think about that the next time you are shooting beside someone on the range........ :roll:

[John Traveler]

A couple of weeks ago, I had the pleasure of chatting with a guy in a gunshop who described an antique Remington rolling block rifle he bought when he was younger.

It was rebarrelled to .458 Winchester, then rechambered to .45-70  and sold.  The previous owner didn't like the kick of the big cartridge, so he sold it and told the buyer "it would take hot .45-70 loads"  because he had fired factory .458 Winchesters in it.  When the new owner fired Ruger Number One levels loads it burst the receiver, split the barrel, and showered his hand, arm, and face with splinters.  He showed me the scars, and they were still there after 20-odd years.

Oh, yeah...when the young fellow went back to the seller and complained, he was told "you must have double-loaded that ammo.  It was SAFE with .458 factory loads!"

I guess I am just trying to understand the reasoning behind that project....chambering a 80 year old surplus rifle for one of the hottest cartridges available???

[Jack Crevalle]

I don't think it's just in the past you had people doing Darwinesque practices. I read responses of whether you can go beyond the published maximum charge weight for a particular cartridge like: "Sure, that's a big case you've got there".

This is why when somebody tries to punctuate their point with "I've been reloading for 30 years!" I take it with a grain of salt.

[calvon]

There was a story, documented in The American Rifleman complete with pictures, in the early fifties I believe, about some lame brain who rechambered a 6.5 mm Arisaka to .30-06. The owner, apparently not the person who chambered it, took it to a gunsmith to find out why it kicked so hard and why it sometimes took a mallet to pound the bolt open. The gunsmith took a quick look at the muzzle and asked if it was a 6.5 Japanese. Nope, came the reply, it is an 06.

The gunsmith then took a good look and sure enough, somebody had ground down the pilot on a .30-06 reamer and had cut a .30-06 chamber in the barrel. That meant that this guy was stuffing 06 ammo into a 6.5 mm barrel and firing it! The .30 caliber bullet was resized to 6.5 mm during the act of firing!

The gunsmith got the gun and sent it to the NRA where some lab people fired the gun (not from the shoulder, but from a remote location) into a long box filled with oiled sawdust so as to recover the bullet without any deformation other than what occurred in the barrel. The Arisaka action took that abuse with no apparent damage. It's a wonder it wasn't a king sized kaboom.

[Donaldo]

Yup, I have heard that the Ariska 6.5 is the strongest action ever built and if the above is true it undoubtedly is.  The first center fire rifle I ever put together, many years ago, was a 6.5 Ariska rechamber to 6.5x257 Roberts Improved.  Why?  A good friend had a reamer for it.  Just cut some to the barrel off and put it in a big maple Herters stock.  As I recall, it shot pretty good.  Remember taking a pdog at about 250 yds.  Was shooting 100 grn hp at I think something above 3000fps.  Don't even remember what powder I used.  Had a rough barrel though, finally gave up the project as I was making cases from '06 brass.   Finally got smarter and bought a .243.

[John Traveler]

Donaldo and Calvon,

The 6.5-257 Roberts wildcat was perfectly viable in the early post-WWII years when 6.5 Arisaka ammunition was non-existent.

That story of the 6.5 Arisaka rechambered to .30-06 was told by the late Frank De Haas who was technical editor for the American Rifleman in the 1950's.  It was plenty scary alright....

The late, great P.O. Ackley did some experimenting along the lines of rechambering standard .30-06 barrels to fire 8x57 Mauser and even larger bullets up to .35 caliber, I believe.  He incorporated long bullet diameter throats and reported that the guns seemed to fire safely, with no signs of overpressure.  He also progressively turned down the O.D. of standard military .30-06 barrels to see how thin he could get them and still fire safely.  Would you believe 0.080" chamber wall and 0.020" barrel wall thickness???

P.O. was also famous for another quotation:  A handloader can make chamber pressures whatever he wants them to be!"

It's simply AMAZING what abuse modern gun steel will take.

[Thomas Krupinski]

Then there was Elmer Keith who seemed to test loads by blowing up guns.  The thought process seemed to be something like this: Keep adding powder until the gun blows up. If you can find another gun that will contain the charge, then that gun is good, but the gun that blew up was to be derided as weak.

Well in defense of Elmer, back in those days guns were inexpensive, information was not.  He made a pretty fair reputation and living off the information he sold.  At the expense of a few guns, sounds like a pretty good trade off to me.

[Robert357]

test loads by blowing up guns. The thought process seemed to be something like this: Keep adding powder until the gun blows up. If you can find another gun that will contain the charge, then that gun is good, but the gun that blew up was to be derided as weak.

Yes, P. O. Ackerly was one of the worst of them.  He use to destructively test rifles until they failed as you state.  

He is the person credited with saying that the Japanese Arisaka was the strongest action, because he could never get the action to fail, no matter what he loaded into the action.  With his worst overloads, the action would stay together, the barrel would just be ripped from the action!

These were handloaders who believed "what didn't kill you made you stronger!"

As one of the comedy routine states, yes we grew up with swings where you played by flying out of them and with monkey bars where you hung upside down over concrete.  Obviously they must not have had a trial lawyers association in those days.  

Personally, I like my fingers and eyes so I am very timid when it comes to reloading.   Even being timid and ultra careful, I have scared the heck out of myself a few times.

[michbob]

Ah, yes.  Even now, data is published that could give bright ideas to the dim witted.  In JJ Donnelly's; 'The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Coversions' under the entry for the 454 Casull, he gives the recipie for a home-brewed TRIPLEX :shock: load.

Be afraid;  be very afraid.

Michbob

[dave375hh]

Robert357,
P.O. Ackley the worst of them? Ackley was doing blow-up tests to determine which military actions were safe and which to avoid. The reason for this was that at that time sporterizing military rifles was quite common and an inexpensive way for many to get their first rifle.  Ackley's tests were done with the rifle tied to a tire, and fired with a rope from a shielded location.
   P.O. Ackley lived into his 80's and died with all his fingers, toes, eyes, ears, ect. still attached.
   Before you ridicule one of the founders of our sport maybe you should check your facts, but what do I know "I'VE BEEN RELOADING FOR 37 YEARS" so I guess I'm just an old fool........NOT!

[John Traveler]

RIGHT ON Dave375HH!!

P.O. Ackley was a very intelligent man and all of his research experiments were documented and oriented toward making the shooting sports safer.

As anyone that has read his books can testify, he not only had a very inquisitive mind, but was able to write and explain his findings to the layman in layman's terms.  He wasn't just someone that recklessly blew up guns, he was a pioneer in the truest sense of the word!

[Kragman71]

Robert357,
P O Ackley tested those guns the same way modern safety engineers crash test cars.
We are all richer for his rifle endurance tests.
Read one of his books.
Frank

[warf73]

I'm great full to the reloaders of the past. They gave us alot of great info. we can still use today and not use.

Myself I like the birth of the Mark V action.


[/quote]

The foundation for the Mark V was the need for a stronger, safer action, able to withstand tremendous pressure (up to 200,000 copper units of pressure—nearly three times that of other popular actions), and the possibility of blown primers and ruptured caseheads (due to the unpredictability of early handloaded and wildcat cartridges). As Roy worked to create the Mark V, he developed a recessed bolt face and a counterbored barrel breech which, when combined with the front receiver ring, delivers three rings of steel surrounding the cartridge. He added three gas ports in the body of the bolt so that gases could escape laterally, should the primer be pierced. And, he developed the enclosed bolt sleeve to redirect remaining gases away from the shooter’s face and downward through the rear of the action.

Finally, Roy added nine locking lugs which were the same diameter as the bolt body itself. Compared to a two-lug design, the nine-lug Mark V action was exceptionally smooth, non-binding, and superior in terms of overall strength and structural integrity. The nine-lug design also delivered a 54-degree bolt lift—virtually unheard of in the firearms industry—which allowed for faster chambering on follow-up shots and a greater bolt-to-scope clearance for fewer battered knuckles. Today, the Mark V action is billed as “the world’s strongest bolt action,” and continues to be the cornerstone of all Weatherby rifles.

[Robert357]

I apologize to the fans of P.O. Ackerly.  I re-read my post, and I got a little carried away in my bias.  He did provide lots of good information and did advance our knowledge of firearm strengths.

Yes, destructive testing when carried out in a disciplined manner can be a good thing.

However, most mechanical designers of firearm actions (or anything), design for some pre-set conditions (in this case, a level of brass pressure or bolt pressure).  As a professional engineer I would want to first ask what the "design limits" were of an action rather than just experiment up to the point where they seem to be when it breaks.  

Having designed real world things and seen others abuse my designs by trying to make them do things they were never intended to do, bothers me.  But then again, I am an engineer and it is my training that makes me feel that way.  At one job I had we use to refer to part of what we did in our design work as trying to make things "idiot-proof," but we recognized that in a Darwinian-way, mother nature always had a habbit of coming up with a superior idiot that would actively try to defeat whatever safety measures we included.

Having said that, I would now like to confess in homage to P.O. Ackerly and Elmer Keith, that I have asked others which actions are "stronger" because as a handloader, I know that mistakes happen and I want to have strong forgiving firearms, all things being equal.  

That is why I love my Ruger Blackhawks and certain other firearms, especially when I handload for them.

[ajj]

The Arisaka story reminds me of the article, with pictures, in Precision Shooting a couple of years ago about the guy who slipped a 300 Whisper round into his AR 15. Ever seen a 180 grain .223 bullet? It didn't exit the barrel. Damage to the gun was surprisingly light. The pressure blew out the magazine well.
The irony of overloading is that there's absolutely no point in it. When the load gets over safe max the pressure goes up erratically but the velocity generally does not and velocity often goes DOWN as pressures get dangerous.

[Robert]

Just one thought though...How does anyone know they can trust factory ammo over re-loads?  It is just like cooking at home or buying prepared food.  I KNOW WHAT IS IN MY LOADS.

[John Traveler]

Robert,

Sorry to disagree with you, but factory loaded ammunition is reliable in the extreme, and intended to chamber and function properly in all guns for that caliber.  That is not necessaily true of handloaded ammo.

I've been a handloader for over 30 years, and can remember every single malfunction incident involving handloads, either my own or a friend's: contaminated dud primers, high promers, low charge or no powder, lead slivers/deformed bullet preventing chambering, long-seated bullets, untrimmed cases, insufficiently resized cases, etc.  You get the picture.  So many things are invovlved in handloaded ammo that  reliability is greatly decreased over factory-made stuff.

This is not to suggest that hnadloaded ammo can't be excellent and more accurate, but more reliable it is NOT!

If you doubt any of this, just try to buy liability insurance for selling your ammunition.  You can't!

[warf73]

I don’t know the laws.
But I would guess that Blackhills ammo Co. has liability insurance and there are several other companies out there selling remanufactured ammo also.

But I do agree with you 100% the ammo companies (the big ones that make millions of rounds a year) have to make there ammo safe to shoot in all kind of junk and still be safe.

[djl4570]

Yes, P. O. Ackerly was one of the worst of them.  He use to destructively test rifles until they failed as you state.  
 
He is the person credited with saying that the Japanese Arisaka was the strongest action, because he could never get the action to fail, no matter what he loaded into the action.  With his worst overloads, the action would stay together, the barrel would just be ripped from the action!

 
I don't think it's fair to describe Ackley as "one of the worst of them".  If you read his books you will know that he was testing theories against an experimental result.    
 
Ackley's objective was not to blow up a rifle; anyone can blow up a rifle with a heavy bullet and a compressed charge of Unique.  Ackley's experiments tested the limits of the brass cases as well as the limits and the failure modes of several different actions.   His experiments with the failure modes of the Arisaka action led him to conclude that it was the strongest action.   Ackley proved false some conventional wisdom of that era by demonstrating that the diameter of the bullet has less effect on pressure than the diameter of the chamber throat by throating .30 caliber barrels so he could fire an 8mm/06 in a .30 caliber barrel.  At no time in reading the books did I ever get the impression that he was encouraging irresponsible destructive testing.    
 
His work in the realm of wildcats and improved cartridges is without peer.    Most of us know Parker Ackley's name largely because he wrote a book which documented his work and the shooting community is better off because of it.

[Questor]

I agree with you. The whole "straight wall, sharp shoulders" thing seems to have been popularized by him, which led to cartridges like the 22  PPC, which led to the WSMs we have today.  It seems like a pretty direct chain of innovation.

[D Garfield]

Well I'm another old fuddy duddy, ( I've been loading for over 40 yrs.) Do you realize that when Elmer, Jack o'connor and the likes were starting out they were the test pilots in reloading, because of there mistakes and whatever we have better information. Now when I started one of the old boys said if you load long enough you'll blow up a firearm and I laughed at him.  Well it happened and it was a 1917 Enfield supposedly one of the ruggedest action there was, I don't know what happened to that shell, but there was nothing wrong with the rest of the box. So be ware maybe your turn is just around the corner. I hope not because you will never forget it. Handloaders can never be to careful, Don't take nothing for granted.

[Flash]

I agree, take nothing for granted. I heard a story a few years back about  a reloader/shooter who was using a model 70 in 243 Winchester with his own handloads. Well, his first few rounds(told to me by a witness)went off with tremendous recoil and report. The next round blew the bolt and took his right cheek bone, lower jaw and ear with it. He lived but who would want to after that.