Author Topic: More cast bullet problems. (Read 1659 times)

JohnDY · « **on:** July 13, 2004, 08:09:30 AM »

Well I went and loaded up 10 rounds with the cast bullets I recently cast using Lee's C309-170F mould and cycled a few through my 30/30 H&R Handi Rifle and they stick in the chamber. I had to tap the rifle against the floor with the action open to get the rounds to eject. There are rifling marks on the bullets almost the full length of the bullet. Nor will these rounds camber in my friend's Marlin 30/30. When he tried it left rifling marks on the bullet also. The action would not even close on his rifle.

The bullets were seated to the crimp grove. I verified my loaded rounds are less than the max COL for the 30/30. The cases were trimmed to the correct length before reloading. I didn't have this problem with other hand loads I made using store bought cast bullets. Just these cast bullet hand loads. I miked the bullets in front and it reading .303. I am getting .310 at the driving bands before sizing with a .309 sizing die. Is the bullet too large forward of the driving bands? Am I having problems with the mould or is something else?

John Traveler · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2004, 10:38:24 AM »

JohnDY,

You described some of the "challenges" I encountered when first casting bullets.

That oversized nose portion (0.303") and the 0.310" diameters are probably part of the problem. If you seat cast bullets forcibly, the bore-riding nose portion sometimes collapses, enlarging it. Measure your your cast slugs and see if the boreriding part is still 0.303" diameter. If it is, then your standard-size .30 throat (and your friend's Marlin) are too tight for that bullet. Try another alloy, something harder, like linotype and try again. Your bullets can come out smaller with a different alloy. Switch bullets, or trade for another mold. Or you can have a gunsmith ream out the throat to accept longer bullets and allow yours to chamber.

haroldclark · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2004, 02:08:47 PM »

JohnDY

Everything that John Traveler is correct.

Another potential problem when loading the thin 30-30 brass is the shoulder will bulge if too much pressure is required to seat the bullet.

The case neck must be expanded to accept the bullet. I use the Lyman M-dies on all my cast bullet loadings. It is somewhat like a belling die, but different in many respects.

The M-Die protrudes down in the case neck and slightly expands it and on the very lip of the case neck, it enlarges a portion of it that is larger than the bottom part. The very mouth of the case is enlarged so that you can set a gas checked bullet sized to .310 in the case and it will stay there until you seat it in the press. (That was a very long mouth full)

Check your loaded ammo around the shoulder by pulling it through your fingers. If you notice a little bulge, it will not chamber in most guns.

I have experienced this problem many times and as recently as yesterday with a cast 308 load.

This occurs with stiff brass when loading jacketed bullets sometimes.

If you check your empty sized brass in the gun chamber and it fits, load a bullet in it and see if it still fits.

I always engage the bullet in the Lands of the barrel if I can.

If the bullet is too large on the nose, seat one or so deeper and then try it. It may be that the bullet needs to be seated deeper and it won't hurt anything if you are not near maximum pressures. The seating depth can create more pressure. If you are at maximum, you may reduce the load by a grain or so.

Harold Clark

Hello, John

HWooldridge · « **Reply #3 on:** July 13, 2004, 04:24:55 PM »

If I remember correctly, pure lead shrinks the most and antimony is the agent that restricts shrinkage (somebody check me on this). If you have some pure lead, cast a few and see how they are on size.

With no throat, you probably can't use a long bore riding bullet at .303 in a "treinta-treinta". My guess (and it's just that without seeing your gun) is that you'll need .300 on the nose and .307 on the bands. If pure lead works for size, start adding alloy a little at a time until they get too big - you'll at least know where the line is.

jhalcott · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2004, 04:40:39 PM »

what the other guys said is true! BUT, if you can get a top punch to fit over the nose portion then size/lube the base of the bullet you probably wont need harder or softer alloys. I had such a top punch made for my 30-30 bullets when I shot "sillywets"and it worked wonders for me. jh

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #5 on:** July 14, 2004, 08:47:59 AM »

I gotta disagree with everybody. I ain't seen a Marlin or Handi yet as tight as .303 between the lands. My money is on a crimp problem, either too much crimp causing a bulge as has been suggested, or not enough, leaving some flare at the mouth. Could also be that the front drive band is sticking out a bit far. I'd coax a bullet into the throat, and push gently with a dowel until it stuck. Pound of pressure is plenty. Mark the dowel and measure to find out where the bullet should be seated.

And if I had bullets dropping at .310, I'd crimp the GCs on with a .311 sizer and count myself lucky. You sure ain't gonna get no smaller bullets using lino. That will make them a thou or two bigger.

cukrus · « **Reply #6 on:** July 14, 2004, 11:50:36 AM »

I would be envious of your mold. But if you suspect it is the problem: Is the mold closing completely? Any burrs? Can you see any light between the mold halves when closed?
Otherwise I'd go along with Leftoverdj. Check the bullet fit and seat deeper if necessary.

fffffg · « **Reply #7 on:** July 14, 2004, 05:02:23 PM »

too small of neck diameter, with too soft of bullet can bulge the bullet on reloading. mike the bullet nose before and after reloading to see if you r expanding the nose upon loading.. .. sometimes you can take the tin out of the lead by not fluxing the lead once in awhile that will put the tin back into the mix so it will stay hard.. youll encounter many problems goint thrue this, but this will take time and youl figgure it out.. luckily you have forums to get anseres.. in the old days it was a real tough go. but lymans book will give you many pointers when your problem can come from so many dirrections at first.. i like a softer bullet for hunting so i need to use a larger expander than what comes with the die set that is set up for jacketed bullets.. i usually order two expanders for the rcbs dies at the same time to save on shipping and to try for accuracy for a cast bullet trials.. differnt crimps, differnt powders, differett lead hardnesses, different seating depths, differtnt size diameters,, it will take you all summer to get this all together.. i love it, others hate it.. in the meantime buy some factory moly lubed bullets to try,, they will give you an idea of what your shooting for in your cast bullets.. you can crush them too as they are not hard cast.. you can find lots of hard cast bullets for sale n the market and theywill load in standard factory dies without deforming and can give good accuracy if the right size for your boar and your boar has no bulges or inconsistenceis.. if your boar is not consistent you will need a softer bullet.. use flat nose bullets in the 30 30 and you will have to use a hard enought lead that wont change bullet shape and load seating depth in the tube.. have fun, enjoy it.. dave.

sgtt · « **Reply #8 on:** July 14, 2004, 06:20:04 PM »

Have you tried an UNLOADED bullet in the muzzle end? Have you slugged the barrel? Not all that scientific but sometimes it will reveal some answers.

JohnDY · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2004, 03:10:52 AM »

Thanks for great replies. The more I learn the more I realize how much I really don't know about casting and reloading. I love trying to work a problem out and this is keeping me going.

I don't think I'm having a problem with how I seat the bullet. I am using a die to bell the case mouth before seating the bullet. The bullet has the same nose diameter before and after I seat the bullet. So I don't think seating the bullet is compressing the nose of bullet. Also the bullets were cast with linotype so they should be plenty hard.

I tried seating the bullet further into the case, pass the front drive band and I am still getting rifling marks on the bullets. If I have to seat them deeper I will but I would really like to seat the bullet to the crimp grove as intended. I would assume a 170-grain flat point cast bullet is sort of intended for the .30/30 and I could use the bullet's crimp grove.

I double-checked the mould and there is nothing causing it not to close tightly. I can't see light through the mould.

I am using a Lee factory crimp die to crimp the bullet so I don't think the crimp is causing the problem.

Finally, I cast a few bullets out of pure lead and they were still causing problems. They measured .302. I noticed Junior over at WWW.Castbullets.com cast some bullets using the same mould and he was getting a .299 nose diameter.

I sent an email to Lee to see what they have to say about this. Here's Lee's reply:

Quote

The nose diameter of the C309-170-F should be between .299 and .301 inch,
so if yours cast .302 it is out of tolerance and should be returned to the
factory for replacement. Our address is:

Lee Precision, Inc.
4275 Highway "U"
Hartford, WI 53027

Castaway · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2004, 04:54:27 AM »

When seating putty soft lead in my 45-70, I ended up with a deformed nose due to the seating die. Got some JB Weld, placed it in the die, used a bullet coated with oil for a release agent and placed it in the JB Weld untiil it hardened. Solved my problem with deformed noses. That only happend though with soft bullets, less than 20:1. If you're using a hard alloy, I'd suspect the front of the bullet tapers too steeply to allow the "normal" OAL seating depth that would have part of the nose inside of the bore. The very rounded nose of the Lee bullet might have the bullet nose engaging the rifling. Try a fired, empty case with bullet seated so your fingers can move it with slight pressure and then measure it. Chamber the round and carefully remove the round, measure it and compare it to the original OAL. See if the bullet has been pushed back in the case by the rifling. A caution with the tension, if too tight, the bullet can pull out and can lodge in the barrel.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2004, 04:28:12 PM »

I still think the bullet nose is too large in diameter if you miked a pure lead bullet at .302 as it came from the mold with no sizing and it sounds like Lee agrees. Send the mold back and get another. Out of tolerance happens - they are producing to +/- .002 and your mold is out by 3 or 4 thousandths.

Lead pot · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2004, 05:20:44 PM »

JohnDY

Slug your barrel and get a mould with a nose that is .003 smaller then the bore and the driving bands .001 wider then the groove,or size to that diameter. for the .30-30 297 nose 309 groove.
Make sure your expanding plug is no tighter then .003 then the bands,or you will deform the nose (expand) were it wont fit the bore.

I do what sgtt suggests, my Sharps have a tight chambers and when I make new cases for my one obsolete caliber and the case walls are to thick I can feel a lot of resistance on the down stroke of the bullet seating 9 out of ten times the round wont chamber because the ogive was squashed down.

One more problem can occur if you crimp a cast bullet. If you have the die set improperly were your starting the crimp before the bullet is fully seated you will deform the bore riding section and the bullet will not fit the chamber.
On a single shot I don't crimp. On the lever guns I do because of them being tube fed.

Good luck with that Lee mould John.

Kurt.