Author Topic: now that the Liberals are back in  (Read 1057 times)

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Offline ratherbefishin

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now that the Liberals are back in
« on: July 18, 2004, 05:23:21 AM »
we can look forward to another billion or so running the firearms registration program.The fact  that their own committee reported back that it was fundamentally flawed and produced no tangible benefits will not deter them in theleast.It didn't even save one life.But it bought votes- and that's all that counts.
Now that the threat of losing the election is over, look for increased fees and vigorous enforcement. The facts are, like it or not, right or wrong, firearms owners  are a shrinking community and we lost- and our votes are expendable.Shoot- we can't even try for ''minority rights''.
  I fully expect the the plan is to make firearms ownship so tied up in beurocracy and paperwork and make it so expensive to own and registere their guns that most people will just throw in the towel and turn in their rifles and shotguns-thousands have already- all except the criminals that is.
It;s naive to think otherwise.

Offline John Y Cannuck

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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2004, 01:37:12 PM »
The Lieberals could use Western Alienation as a way to drop it, and save face. Oh, I woke up, dang, and it was such a nice dream too.
Canadian Liberal Gov't = elected Dictatorship

Offline ratherbefishin

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now that the Liberals
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2004, 07:03:30 PM »
they won't can the program, it's doing exactly what they intended it to do- gain the inner city vote.And, it;s an ideological thing- guns are ''dangerous'' and should not be in private hands.Hunting is not politically correct, and the number of licences continues to decline, so the Liberals are pretty safe in targetting us- we;re really no threat to them and they know it.

Offline upnorth

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now that the Liberals are back in
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2004, 10:24:27 AM »
I'm still scratching my head.... 7 million gun owners, 1/5 th of the population of the entire country, and we still couldn't unseat them?? To all gun owners who voted liberal... thanks for selling us down the river.
you wanna take my guns? go ahead, it's your arm!

Offline Rick Teal

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now that the Liberals are back in
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2004, 01:49:08 PM »
It may just be wishful thinking on my part, but I tend to think that with the minority situation, the Liberals will tend to maintain a low profile on most polarizing issues such as gun control.  They're still going to have to answer the questions on the sponsorship scandal, and any actions that may unify the opposition will be dangerous.

I'm surprised at these Firearms Act amendments that are out there right now.  Personally, I don't think they are part of the current political agenda, and if our friends in the New Conservatives start waving the flag, I would expect to see them postponed until the Grits can wield a majority hammer.
Hunting is Exciting!  Bolt actions are BORING!!
Don't mix the two!

Offline ratherbefishin

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now that the Liberals are back in
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2004, 06:50:08 PM »
not a chance- Both the Liberals and NDP support the registration program because it gets votes- period.The Liberals couldn't can it even if they wanted to because the NDP would jump on the chance to be the hero's who are ''saving '' Canada from ''guns''.This isn't a case of ignorance on the politicians part- they knbow full well the firearms registry has prove itself completely ineffective in all areas except the most important one- and the one it was designed for- to get the vote frp ordiary non firearms owners who didn't  know we already had gun control, education programs and a mandatory handgun registry.If you doubt this- conduct your own ''poll'' from non firearms owners.Nope- we face an idiological politically corrct view that ''guns'' don't belong in society, and hunting  is a''cruel'' activety that should be banned.Truth, facts,and  evidence have very little to do with it

Offline Rick Teal

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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2004, 11:25:40 AM »
Rather:

I'm not anticipating that they would cancel, the registry, only that they'd be unlikely to "push the envelope" farther than it is now.  I just don't think we'll see new "oppressive" measures beyond what's already there.

Rick
Hunting is Exciting!  Bolt actions are BORING!!
Don't mix the two!

Offline ratherbefishin

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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2004, 11:44:21 AM »
I just read an article in ''Western Sportsman'' where the tally is 2 billion and Martin went on record as saying he is ''committed to gun control and gun registration''- ands why not?- he got elected didn't he?This in spite of his own committee report that came back with the findings the registry has absolutely zero benefit- except that which was clearly designed for- to get votes.

Offline Rick Teal

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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2004, 12:08:26 PM »
The gun control issue was not a primary one in this campaign. Other than the motherhood statements that they support gun control, the Liberals were generally mum on the issue knowing they would be brought to task for mismanagement.  

It  was an issue used to garner inner city votes in the previous two elections, but I seriously doubt that anyone could inmply that the Liberals won this election on a platform of gun control.  To most rural Canadians and all gun owners, the registry was a central issue, but most Canadians hardly noticed it other than that it was another example of fiscal irresponsibility.

I'm waiting for the throne speech.
Hunting is Exciting!  Bolt actions are BORING!!
Don't mix the two!

Offline ratherbefishin

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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2004, 04:04:50 PM »
the thing is, the Liberals will never admit the whole thing is a collossel cock up and therefore will never cancel it.It will go on as long as they are in power because it would be political suicide for them to cancel the program on the basis it was doing absolutely nothing to reduce crime or help police[ they naively said a registry would allow the police to determine whether or not guns were in a residence-duh...like the criminaols were going to admit that???].
 I fully expect they will try to bury the cost in some other budget- like the RCMP or something like that.It's part of their idiology.They don't understand, and they have no intention of understanding a rural lifestyle where firearms are as much a tool a shovel

Offline John Y Cannuck

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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2004, 04:22:07 PM »
Quote from: Rick Teal
Rather:

I'm not anticipating that they would cancel, the registry, only that they'd be unlikely to "push the envelope" farther than it is now.  I just don't think we'll see new "oppressive" measures beyond what's already there.

Rick


Have you reviewed the new reloading/storage regs they are working on? :evil:
Canadian Liberal Gov't = elected Dictatorship

Offline ratherbefishin

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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2004, 05:22:19 AM »
the biggest factor in poloitics is what I call the ''pissoff'' factor.The government calculates based on polls, what the effects of any piece of legisalation might be at the polls, and if the benefits outweigh the negatives, they proceed.Morality or practical benefit have little or nothing to do with it.They know the firearms community is a shrinking number and mainly in rural areas, so their votes are by and large expendable.
  Wereally don't represent any significant threat to them at all, and conversely, crime is a big issue and the government must be seen as ''doing something''or they face a voter backlash.It's politically correct to be in favour of''gun control'' although very few people who make that claim could define exactly what''gun control'' actually means.They have no idea of what legislation we already have on the books, or what laws govern shooters, or what education programs we have.All they know is they ''don't like guns''and see no reason for anyone actually owning one.
  Hunting licences are on the decline as it has fallen out of political favour- the fact that hunting is far less ecologically distruptive than farming or that it is a valuable wildlife management tool has no impact on what the general urban populace thinks.Nor does the fact that some of us prefer to eat naturally grown protein that has not been fed a chemical diet of hormones.
 Socially, hunting and fishing  has historically  involved father son/ daughter relationships and that is an area that has broken down as we moved away from an agrarian society-and to the  detrement of family.  reationships.
 But- the fact remains that the public perception in urban areas differs significantly from that of rural areas  , and as the rural populations migrate to unban areas, so does the public perception of firearms change from recreational use to the use of firearms in the hands of criminals.And as long as the non firearms owning community is content to be pacified into thinking registering firearms will have an impact on criminal use, we will continue to see more restrictive legislation on firearms ownership.The only law that criminals are going to respect is a minimum non concurent prison term for the posession of any firearm in the commission of any crime. The word on the street needs to be''use a gun and you're doing serious time''Saddling  hunters and target shooters with useless paperwork and multi-billion dollar registration programs may make the non firearms owning community feel good, but it hasn't saved one life-nor impacted the flood of illegally smuggled weapons flooding across our borders.The fact that I cannot import a rifle barrel for a single shot rifle across the border is proof of just how out of touch legislators are

Offline Rick Teal

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« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2004, 10:04:42 AM »
John:

In an earlier post on this thread I said:

"I'm surprised at these Firearms Act amendments that are out there right now. Personally, I don't think they are part of the current political agenda, and if our friends in the New Conservatives start waving the flag, I would expect to see them postponed until the Grits can wield a majority hammer."

What I'd meant to refer to was "The Explosives Act".

I believe these amendments were initiated and are being pushed by officials and not politicians (probably under general policy objectives set by the Chretien Government).  I believe that political pressure on this issue would lead to the postponement if not abandonment of these changes.  We just need our allies in the new conservatives to  apply the right type of pressure.

Rick
Hunting is Exciting!  Bolt actions are BORING!!
Don't mix the two!

Offline John Y Cannuck

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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2004, 01:10:18 PM »
I think so too, and I wonder if the Conservatives really want the regs to change before an election. Their strategists probably want to maintain it as an issue to get shooter votes.
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Offline ratherbefishin

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« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2004, 01:38:07 PM »
Does anyone know of any administration anywhere in the world that has implemented any of these beurocratic nightmares of firearms registration programs that has actually evaluated them and came to the conclusion the only benefit was to the employees thay hired to run them- and subsequently  dropped the program and implemented tough criminal laws in their place?
  I understand there was a Government committee that reported back   with their findings that the registration program was a total waste of taxpayers money, and had had zero impact on crime or deaths[the supporters  do try to justify  firearms registration by quoting  the fact that firearms suicide deaths have declined but fail to mention death by hanging increased by an equal number, with the net result a zero change in deaths]
 I'd just like to know why they don't send a clear unmistakeable message to the streets by implementing  very tough non concurrent sentances for the criminal use of any firearms.

Offline crazyjjk

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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2004, 02:50:07 AM »
ratherbefishing, I have 2 words for you "CASH COW" Do you know how many of the Liberal's relatives and friends have jobs or positions or in some other way making money off of this financial pit. It's like here in the states in NY. The Lottery was supposed to end the school tax. Yeah right! :evil:  All these programs that are of no use produce income for the politicians themselves and their cronies. With this financial incentive behind it you will have a hard time ever getting them to give it up no matter how "WRONG" it is. Votes and Dollars do you think any politician anywhere in the world is going to give that up just because a program doesn't work?>

PS: Didn't mean to rain on anyones parade I am just calling them like I see them.

Offline ratherbefishin

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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2004, 04:56:34 AM »
actually you are correct, the committee who examined the firearms registry found huge cost discrepancies, over runs, travel budgets, bonuses, overtime, computor programs-none of which were considered in the initial proposal, which was something like 80 million-we now estimate it will top 2 billion .
  And- all this in spite of the committee's findings that the program has had absolutely zero effect on reducing deaths.The supporters of the program say it has reduced FIREARMS deaths by 30%- and this is correct-  because they include suicide deaths[ by far the largest component of firearms deaths] by firearms in their statistics.They conveniently fail to mention that suicide deaths by hanging went up by exactly the same number-resulting in the overall number of deaths not changing at all.
 The real problem is getting the politicians to admit they were wrong-they would rather carry on wasting tax payer dollars than admitting it.Goodness knows we could spend 2 billion more productively- like on health care, or putting more police officers on the streets if they wanted to ''do something'' about reducing crime.
 And, while everybody talks and debates the issue- the flood of illegal handguns continues to come across our borders unabated.We 've had a mandatory registration proigram for handguns for over 70 years, and that has not impeded or stopped the criminal use of them- nor have the criminals been waiting in lineups to register them....