Where in the world are the blue-book antique Colt Navies???

[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

   I have been studying the 1851 Colt Navies for about a year and have gotten fairly knowledgeable about them.  Of course I want to buy an original.
 
  Here is my question:  I have a copy, and have always used, the Blue-Book of used gun values.

   Where in the world can I find an 1851 Navy, in genuine original 50% condition, grade fine, at the Blue-Book price, plus perhaps an extra two o three hundred dollars for a commission?    I have been studying the internet for a year, and I am absolutely dumbfounded.

    It seems that everyone on the internet is advertising and describing 1851 Colt Navies that are, by their own descriptions, no better than 50 to 60% pieces, but are putting prices on them that correspond to 90 to 95% in the Blue Book.   What in the world is going on here?

    This is particularly baffling to me since, most of the pieces have stayed on their websites for more than a year, and for the third straight year in a row, the Blue Book (25th ed.) is reporting a zero increase in the Blue Book values of the 1851 Colt Navies and 1849 Pocket Models.

   Again, I am asking experienced collectors, what in the world is going on.

    Also, I am asking experienced collectors the following:   If there is no question that the remaining original finish on all metal surfaces of a Colt Navy is only 50%,  does the fact that the wooden grips may have 90% of the original varnish "push" this piece up to being an 85% piece?     Many many internet sellers are saying that it does.  I don't view it this way, because under this type of approach, you could have a piece with only 10 to 15% remaining finish on the metal, and if for some reason the grips are 90%, then it would mean that you suddenly have a grade "fine" piece, being 30% overall or more.   I just don't buy it.

    The way I understand the Blue Book system, the metal must first stand on its own to establish the grade.  Let's say it is clearly 50%.  Then, to stay at 50%, the grips should be approximately 50% also, and significantly better grips can't push it up in value more than a small amount.  

   Am I right???  If not, then I could have a pre-64 winchester rifle, with 10% finish on metal, and since the surface of the wooden stock is so vast compared to the metal, I could claim that a 95% stock pushes the grade of the rifle up to 70 or 75%  I say, "No way." But I would be glad to hear from others.

Thanks, Big Paulie

[filmokentucky]

Paulie, A lot of the folks selling guns on the web are just plain greedy. They are hoping that buyers are naive enough to accept their (the sellers) evaluation of the piece and bid accordingly. Sadly, this ploy works often enough to keep them doing this. This is also why rare pieces, such as the occasional bogus Walker appear.
   The best place to see and buy antique firearms, in my opinion, is at local gun shows. At least you can see them up close and often handle them. No chance of doctored photographs or exaggerated claims  this way. And you can negotiate as to price face to face. There are more good guys than bad guys in the business, but you do have to be careful,
especially on-line.

[stepnmud]

Not sure where yer located, but here in Houston, Tx. is a place called Collectors Firearms and have looked at several fairly priced Navies in the $1000. range. plus they'll negotiate abit.


http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/

some of their items listed are sold or have been on this site for awhile. but I have dealt with them and liked the deals I've made with them.

[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

   In line with my foregoing discussion, if anyone out there has an all original 1851 Colt Navy, in true 70% to 75% Blue Book condition, and also meeting the NRA Antique Grade of Fine, and wants to sell it at Blue Book Price plus a reasonable upcharge of say 15%, then please send me an e-mail with description, and also send pictures.  Upon purchasing, I would also need your Bill of Sale to certify that it is in NRA Antique Grade of Fine.  

   If your not totally sure you've got one, however, please don't send me any information.

Thanks, Big Paulie

[1860]

If your house is worth say 200K, you're likely to put it on the Market for 225K or more.  You are also likely to clean up minor imperfections, a little spackle and fresh paint, you know the drill.  Guns are no different, if it's worth a grand, ask 1200, you can always go down in price if you need to move it.  

The Blue book and the rateings are only staring points, something to judge the price and condition against, but not always an exact science.  The Blue book is often on the low side, just as the internet is often too high.  I collect Winchester leverguns, I don't care what the blue book value is compared to the asking price, or the Rating of the finish, if the gun has even the smallest crack or chip in the wood, I'm done looking unless the price is beyond belief.    Other guys don't mind that but may hate incorrect or altered sights.  Look hard enough at the vast majority of antique guns and you'll find something you don't like, atleast until you get to the something like a Henry where just having a reasonable example is great.

Know your gun, know what they are worth in a realistic market, and when you find one that suits you, don't 2nd guess yourself by looking too hard at small defects.  Even the ones you buy that have anoying little things wrong will appreciate in value over time.

Do me a favor, look up a Winchester 1894 Saddle Ring Carbine (SRC), made 1897, excellant bore, wood, and mechanics, 60%Blue on reciever, 75% elsewhere.  Cal. 38-55, compare that to the same gun in 30-30...Let me know what your book says the value is for both and I'll tell ya what I've been offered for the 38-55.

60

[Sundown Holly]

Paulie, I found my original Navy Colt (manufactured in the fall of 1861) from the Gun List.  This mag comes out each Monday and some weeks there are many Navys, and some weeks there are none. Most of the sellers will allow you to view the piece for about 3 days. If you don't like it you can return it. It is important that this is understood between you and the seller.  I actually purchased two Navy Colts this way. The second one was not quite as described so I returned it and received a full refund.

One word of advice,  get the magazine on Monday morning. The Navys go fast. If you wait till Wednesday or Thursday don't even bother calling. Usually the seller has already received a commitment to purchase and has a list of 4 or 5 guys who want to buy if the first one bails out.  I hope this helps.

[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

   Thanks for all of the advice.  I understand that anyone with a good house or antique is going to price it a bit on the upside. The examples of a $200 K house being priced at $225 is a good example; but this is only a 12.5% premium.  The premiums being added onto the Colt Navies on the internet are way way beyond that.  Again, you routinely see 60% pieces being listed with starting or reserve prices in the 93% condition range! See AuctionArms.com  and Gunbroker.com

   What is the most remarkable thing to me, and maybe someone can explain it to me, is that if you look at all of these Navies listed on the auction sites,  they are listed so incredibly high that not 1 in 20 even gets a single bid!!!!     They sit there for weeks and weeks, at these ridiculously high prices, and rack up zero bids.  This should tell you something about what they are worth in the open market.  

   So what is the point?  Why are these guys even bothering to photograph, describe, price and post their Navies in this manner?   Are they just in it for the thrill of Show and Tell??    Again, not 1  is 20 is getting a bid.   Do they just have nothing better to do?

Regards,  Big Paulie

[Ramrod]

Big Paulie> I'm getting a slight feeling of deja-vous here. As filmokentucky just said, and I think I might have also posted here sometime in the past, the quality gunshows are still the best bet for a new collector purchasing old guns. I hope you are not shocked by this statement, but there are alot of dishonest opportunists selling all kind of junk on the internet. Why not ask twice what someting is worth? There might be someone stupid enough to pay.

[Big Paulie]

Sound advice.  Thanks.

Another factor of course.  There are no quality gunshows in Memphis for collectible colts.  This means driving to Atlanta, or St. Louis, or Tulsa, which with gas, hotels, etc. adds another $300 or more to the cost of acquiring a nice piece, plus the hours and hours of driving time.  I guess the internet prices are taking this into account, since the pieces are promptly delivered to your door.  

Big Paulie

[DakotaDan]

Prices for old Colts follow the same economics of other collectibles. If it was possible to compare the sale of all 1851 Navies of an essentially similar quality & condition this month the prices would follow a bell-curve, some selling low, some high, and the rest around the middle range.

I don't rely much on blue books and price guides, because prices of things are generally governed by supply and demand which can be very volatile.

As a buyer I want the lowest price; as a seller I want the highest price. However, the more I ask, the longer and more difficult it will be to sell. If my audience is very knowledgeable, it will be even more difficult to sell above the market average for that point in time. Trying to get something for 'half' price is like a blind hog finding acorns: it can happen, but not often.

My strategy to buy requires knowledge of what I am buying, extensive knowledge of the market (prices in all places - stores, auctions, shows, internet, etc.) and a willingness to search. I usually get the best price when I know more than the seller and other competing buyers. But I don't worry about over-priced guns, unless the market is moving faster than me.

Big Paulie, I like your approach. My guess is that you will be quite successful acquiring some nice 1851 Navies.

-d

[filmokentucky]

Paulie- Another option might be to check out Dixie Gun Works web site.
If you see one you like, you would only have a 150 mile or so drive to check it out. That way you'd save on meals and motels and such.

[Big Paulie]

Dear Filmo and Dan,

Thanks for the great advice.  I am familiary with Dixie Gun Works, but I never knew that they started selling genuine Colts.  I will definitely check this out.

By the way, maybe you could give me a little advice?  Take a look at gunbroker.com, under the topic of Colt Navy.  You will see an 1861 Navy, with an ivory handle, with asking price of $6,400 and a current bid of $5,000.

In the picture of the piece, it looks like it has lots of bluing on it.  (The description says it retains bluing, but doesn't say how much.)  The description also says that it has never been re-blued.

I called the seller to get more information on the percentage of the bluing.  The husband is out of town, so the wife answered the questions.  She said that there is no bluing left on the cylinder and very little bluing left on the barrel.  I asked her how this could be, based on the picture.  She then said, "Well, the cylinder and the barrel are "black", but there is not much bluing on them."  I asked her if the color is really a dark plum color or dark rust brown, but she said no, it is "black."  

Any ideas on what this means?  Does the original bluing on an 1861 eventually turn black?

Also, she said that most of the safety pins have been totally worn down.  If this piece does in fact have a lot of original bluing still on it (i.e., the black is the bluing), the this doesn't quite add up.   My understanding is that safety pins get worn down based on the piece being "carried" alot.  But, it this piece was carried that much, then how could it have so much black bluing remaining?

Thanks for any thoughts.

Paul Amos, Memphis, TN

[filmokentucky]

It would take a lot of use to wear the safety pins down and yet the revolver doesn't seem to show the usual wear patterns that a piece of this age normally has. In fact, I don't see the signs of holster wear at all.
  The usual appearance of a gun of this age varies from no finish and a sort of gray to varying amounts of bluing usually turning a plum or purple hue. Never saw one turn black before. Maybe it came in contact with some chemical or  was wrapped up in a material that contained a chemical that caused this appearance--it's hard to tell from photographs.
  The photographs seem to show a normal finish, but apparently that's not the case. This is one reason why the hands on, gun show venue is still the best way to go, even if it means a little extra expense. I saw a number of fine Colts at the Springfield show this weekend and for less money.    
  Paulie, this seems to be important to you, and at these prices, you can get a fine piece. If you can't get to a show , maybe you could try one of the better auction houses. They put out illustrated catalogs and you can
usually phone in questions. Gregg Martin comes to mind but there are others. I sense that this is more than just wanting an old Colt with you, so
 just remember that there are a lot of Navies out there and in this price range you can afford to be a little choosy.
  Dixie has always dealt in antique firearms. They were a passion of Turner Kirkland's and he was most respected in the field and a true gentleman. I would think that it would be well worth a drive to Union City to see what they have. At the very least, it would add to your education.

[DakotaDan]

Paul,

I have to strongly agree with filmokentucky. At that price range it is better to slightly overpay for known quality than to gamble on someone's interpretation (ie, in your case the seller and his wife). Best way to get known quality is to personally examine the gun at the shop or show. Next best for buying 'sight unseen' is to buy from a dealer with a well known and flawless reputation, and then, perhaps from a first rate auction house such as Julia's, Christies, or Butterfields, etc. who are known for vetting their guns. Often regional auction houses will also have firearms experts with whom you can develop a relationship with to help you find the right buy for the money you want to invest.

The criticisms I have received on pieces I've sold have also helped me choose what I buy now. I am far less tolerant of faults now than when I started, even if it means having fewer pieces in my collection. And when something doesn't quite make sense, there is usually a good reason --- trust your experts and your intuition.
Good luck, D.

[filmokentucky]

Paul, Dakota makes a very important point. No matter which area of collecting you are involved in, it is indeed best to have a small number of fine pieces than a larger number of so-so pieces. I expect that, like most of us, money is a concern, so you probably have to wait for the right gun and the money to come together at the same time. But I finally discovered that patience is often its own reward. I don't have a big collection, but each piece means a lot to me.  I shoot the guns I collect and I learned to be picky. I'd hate to say how long it took me to finally get myself a Hawken rifle(not an original) but it was well worth the wait.
   Once you've made a choice, you'll appreciate the extra time and effort you put into the purchase every time you admire that Navy Colt. And the extra effort reduces the chance that you'll experience buyer's remorse-but
that's a tale for another time.