Author Topic: Winchester model 70 458 win mag push feed reliability????  (Read 1419 times)

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Offline Thebear_78

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Winchester model 70 458 win mag push feed reliability????
« on: October 11, 2004, 02:38:08 PM »
I have a chance to get a Winchester model 70 458win mag for $450 dollars, possibly $400.  My only problem with it is that its a push feed and not a CRF.  I have heard that the push feeds will jam a lot more than a CRF.  The gun has a synthetic stock and is about 85%-90% condition, is this a decent price?

Offline Questor

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Winchester model 70 458 win mag push feed r
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2004, 03:39:49 PM »
The  CRF actions are the action of choice for many hunters of dangerous game, but just because it's CRF doesn't mean it's reliable.  It may need some action work to make it reliable.  One of the most common causes of bolt action jams is the "short stroke", which is a user error. The shooter doesn't pull the bolt back far enough and the bolt doesn't pick up the next round from the magazine.  Another cause is that the feed ramp does not readily accept bullets of a particular shape. This is a case where action work is needed.  The advantage of CRF is that it will feed even if the gun is upside down. A push feed may not do this if the bolt is worked too slowly or awkwardly.  

Craig Boddington and some others write that this CRF vs. Push Feed isn't as big a deal as some argue it to be, but Boddington rates the CRF as being slightly preferable for safari use.  

I think it's significant that Weatherbys are push feed guns, and many of their products are built specifically for hunting big game.  Weatherbys are also the guns of choice for many top hunters.

I think that the total package is more important than any individual feature.
Safety first

Offline oso45-70

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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2004, 04:58:00 PM »
Thebear,
Sounds like a prettygood deal to me if it ain't hammered to death. And i don't think you need to worry about the push feed factor unless you plan to shoot it upside down. Most of the problems was people getting in too big of a hurry and short stroking the bolt. I would like to find one for that price even if it was a little rough. I'd say go for it. Oh by the way you shoukd turn that little MINNER loose so he can grow up. Good luck to ya sir............Joe......

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Offline Con

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Winchester model 70 458 win mag push feed r
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2004, 08:22:57 PM »
Trust me, from a factory production rifle a PF will be more reliable than a CRF particularly in a caliber like a 458WM, which is straight cased with generally a big round-nosed projectile. The PF will also generally be slicker and faster to cycle. I've had both PF and CRFs and the ones that jam most often are the CRFs. Set up correctly by a good 'smith the CRFs ARE more reliable but the expense to get them there doesn't warrant the work; unless your life truely depends on it.
Cheers...
Con

Offline Thebear_78

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Winchester model 70 458 win mag push feed r
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2004, 10:24:51 AM »
Joe-  

 I think I will hold on on that rifle for a while, at least until the price is so good I can't possibly refuse it.  I've pretty much decided on the 375H&H over the 458 win.  The king in my pic was just a little guy, only 45lbs.   Here is what a real big king looks like 62lbs.  I'm 6'2" and weight just under 300lbs so that should give you some measure of reference for how big this king truly is.  I wish I could claim it for myself but my buddy caught this one on the kenai river, since he was using my bait rig and I was the only one who could lift the net out of the water I think I should get most of the credit  :wink: You just gotta love the fishing in alaska.

 

Offline Lawdog

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Winchester model 70 458 win mag push feed r
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2004, 11:40:25 AM »
Con,

Quote
Trust me, from a factory production rifle a PF will be more reliable than a CRF particularly in a caliber like a 458WM, which is straight cased with generally a big round-nosed projectile.


I am sorry but for a dangerous game rifle NO PF is reliable.  Just ask the guide in Alaska that got mauled by a wounded Brown Bear this last spring because his Sako jammed when he short stroked it?  To many times a PF has jammed after being short stroked because the experienced hunter didn't fully pull the bolt back in a time of great stress(and being attacked by an animal does bring on stress).  Tell you what, why not take your statement down to the African Hunting board here at Graybeards and see what our resident Professional Hunter, J. J. Hack, has to say about it.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline oso45-70

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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2004, 01:00:44 PM »
I don't want to get in on a which feed is better crf or pf. I have never had a problem with either, But i do know about having to get off a fast second shot.

Thebear, Well i see you turned the little minner loose and went to fishing.
THAT is a big fish. I would probobly mess my pants if i cought something like that LOL 6"2 and 300lbs we are about the same size, Didn't miss too many meals huh, Save me a place on the river i'll be there in a while.
Good luck BEAR..........Joe..........
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Offline Gowge

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Re: Winchester model 70 458 win mag push feed reliability???
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2004, 11:56:27 PM »
Here's some articles on guns, cartridges, etc. for dangerous game hunting...

http://www.african-hunter.com/archives.htm

Bear, please take a minut & have a look at this article on the link below:

http://www.african-hunter.com/it's_all_in_the_claw.htm

The Model 70 Classic has the right kind of action (extractor & ejector) for dangerous game - not the post '64 versions that have proven to be a bad choice for the past 40 years.   The failures are documented.   IF you are not hunting dangerous game or in BEAR Country, the lower cost rifles might do OK - especially if you can use it slowly like a single shot rifle while you manually control the feed from the magazine.

Here's part of the article from the link above...

It's All In the Claw

"Ganyana

~The hunter fired his first shot at the buffalo, resting his arm against the right hand side of a mopane tree for steadiness. At the shot the buffalo took off and the hunter took a quick pace to the left to keep the buff in view, swinging his rifle around the tree. He brought the rifle hurriedly to his shoulder again as the buff changed his mind about flight, and wheeled to charge. The hunter took his time, made sure of his shot and CLICK!!~
 
A shot from a fellow hunter felled the already mortally wounded buff, but the young hunter was left gazing at his rifle and babbling to his co-hunter about the misfeed, (for there was no round in the breech) which had caused his acute adrenaline rush. The older hunter said nothing, but walked over to where the youngster was standing and picked up a live round from the dirt near his feet. With a patronising smile the old hunter commented "I saw the round fall out as you were reloading. You were watching the buff like you should have been, but your rifle has one of those new fangled actions. I told you to buy a Mauser". Standing further back I laughed at the expression on the young man's face as he stared at the round his mentor was proffering him. "

There's also three articles on the links below that might help you under stand more fully, why some rifles are a good choice while others are not so good...


http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm
http://www.african-hunter.com/a_guide_to_rifle_choice_-_part_ii.htm
http://www.african-hunter.com/a_guide_to_rifle_choice_-_part_iii.htm

GOOD LUCK!   :D
The wicked flee where no man pursueth but the righteous are bold as a lion.

Offline Gowge

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Sorry - Left This OUT
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2004, 12:10:25 AM »
Sorry, but I left this comparison photo out.   IF you need protection from BEARS while fishing and would rather use a shotgun you already own, here's an alternative...  



The guys at Dixie Slugs are sorting out a brass shell load for the Spring BEAR season.  Right now, they're offering the "X-Terminator" load in a 3" plastic shell which is a 730gr full bore, hard cast lead slug @ 1400fps with only 10,600psi in pressures.   More info as well as comparative stopping power on this thread below:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=15928

and....  http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=15553

There's a video clip on the second link where you can view one of the guys shooting the "Terminator Express" in a Savage 210 Bolt Action...

Below, is a pic of the X-Terminator 12ga load.



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The wicked flee where no man pursueth but the righteous are bold as a lion.