Author Topic: Trimming Cases - Is there a Minimum Case Length?  (Read 2135 times)

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Offline firstshot

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Trimming Cases - Is there a Minimum Case Length?
« on: August 08, 2004, 08:47:12 AM »
Max case length for a 30-06 is 2.494 and I understand that many set trim length to about .01 shorter than max or 2.484.

I know you are supposed to trim all your cases to the shortest case length for uniformity; however, I got a batch of 100  New Remington 30-06 cases that range in length from 2.489 - 2.474.

I've looked through my reloading manuals and can't find anything on "Min" case length.  Trimming these to 2.474 would be .02 short of max length.  It doesn't seem to me like .02 shorter than max would be too short.  How short is too short?

Thanks
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Offline Jack Crevalle

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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2004, 10:10:32 AM »
If you've looked in reloading manuals, I can't understand why one of them didn't have "Trim to ___" length. Virtually all manuals I've seen have this, especially for a popular cartridge like the .30-06.

Offline BCB

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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2004, 11:24:37 AM »
firstshot,
2.484" is the "trim to" length for the '06.  Yet, I have measured NEW brass and it will be less than the "trim to" length of the particular case/cartridge that I was working with at that time.  I suppose one could get cases too short, and not have proper tension on the bullet to allow it to perform well.  I suspect your shorter new cases will be to "trim to" length after a couple of firing.  Can be tough to get consistent crimps on the different length case though.  I actually do trim a 357 Magnum case shorter than "trim to" length to allow the overall length of the loaded cartridge to crimp in the bullet crimping groove and still cycle through a lever rifle...BCB

Offline firstshot

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Trimming Cases - Is there a Minimum Case Le
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2004, 11:58:16 AM »
Jack

Manuals do show trim to length to be 2.484 (.01 less than max), they just don't tell you a "minimum" case length.

BCB-----"I suppose one could get cases too short, and not have proper tension on the bullet to allow it to perform well. I suspect your shorter new cases will be to "trim to" length after a couple of firing"

I loaded some of the "short" cases as fowlers and they shot OK so I guess there was enough tension on the bullet.  I'm shooting 180gr Game Kings & they seat deep in the neck anyway.

Suppose I'll just keep reloading them till they "grow" to "trim to" length.

Thanks for the replies

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Offline Jack Crevalle

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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2004, 01:14:26 PM »
Okay, I get the question now.

Have you F/L resized them? I've taken to doing that with new brass. It may stretch them a little.

Offline firstshot

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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2004, 02:31:14 PM »
Quote from: Jack Crevalle
Okay, I get the question now.

Have you F/L resized them? I've taken to doing that with new brass. It may stretch them a little.


Jack

Yea, I'm shooting a BAR, so have full length resized them twice now.  Just got through shooting them the third time this weekend and haven't resized them yet.  Will check lengths when I rework them.

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Offline Iowegan

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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2004, 01:58:06 PM »
FYI on brass length. The trim length is usually .015" short of SAAMI minimum chamber depth, just in case there's a rifle out there with a less than minimum cut chamber.  The max length you see in reloading manuals are deceiving and really mean SAAMI minimum chamber depth, minus .005".  The difference in max and trim length runs about .010". Most rifle manufacturers cut the throat way deeper than SAAMI specs so the rifle will chamber ammo from any company. The real max length is chamber dependent and varies considerably from one gun to the next.

To optimize accuracy, the brass should be .005" short of bottoming out at the case mouth. You need the .005 so the brass can "grow" when fired. Most reloaders trim their cases unnecessarily and sacrifice accuracy.  If you measure the neck diameter of a spent (not resized) case, you'll find your chamber throat diameter. That measurement will typically be .025" larger than the bullet diameter. When a round is fired, the bullet leaves the case and has an opportunity to drift off center from the extra .025" gap. In turn, the nose of the bullet will strike the bore slightly off center and cause damage to one side. This deforms the bullet and makes it out of balance. The out of balance bullet will whiffle down range and the groups will open up. The shorter the brass has been trimmed, the more opportunity the bullet has to drift off center.

I did a lot of research on this topic to understand where the finer points of accuracy came from. As a result, I invented and now market a set of chamber gauges that can be seen at: http://www.cactustactical.com/reloading.html  They take the guess work out of trim length (and bullet seating).

Yes, most new brass will be well under trim length. The only full length brass I have found for a 30-'06 is from Lapua and it's expensive. Shorter brass doesn't mean it won't work, it just won't be quite as accurate as optimum length brass.  If you're happy with your groups, then brass trimming is not an issue. If you really want to get the best accuracy performance, then use optimum length brass.
GLB

Offline firstshot

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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2004, 05:02:13 PM »
Iowegan

Thanks for the info....very informative.  I'm getting good accuracy out of the shorter than trim length brass.  Using 180Gr Sierra Game Kings on top of IMR-4831, groups are ranging between .535" & .821" CTC at 100 Yds.

Even so, I would like to know just how good this gun could shoot with an optimum set up.  I think I will pick up some of the Lapua brass just to see what's possible.  This is a hunting gun, and I know you don't "need" that kind of accuracy, but it sure is fun just trying to find out how accurate it can be.

Thanks again for the info
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Offline Dusty Miller

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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2004, 05:20:46 PM »
IOWEGAN:  I must be missing something.  When I reload my '06 my OAL determined by a gauge I bought just for that purpose that allows me to set my bullet out just a tad shy of the riflings.  Even is the case length is not within spec that OAL remains the same.  As a matter of fact, even if the case lengths VARY my OAL remains the same.  Let me know if I'm off base here, you clearly know a lot more about the subject than do I!
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Iowegan

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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2004, 07:55:17 PM »
Dusty, You're right on as far as bullet seating goes. The length of the brass does not affect the cartridge OAL, only the bullet seating depth does. The length of the brass neck is what I was referring to. If there is an empty area in your chamber throat because the brass neck was too short, it allows the bullet to do the floppy chicken and not enter the bore in perfect alignment. This will affect accuracy. Are ya with me now?

firstshot, You might want to try annealing your cases. It makes the shoulder-to-mouth soft and has some good benefits. It makes the cases grow a bit faster, makes the cases last longer, and it releases the bullet before pressure peaks, thus better bullet-to-bore alignment and less "bullet strike damage". Accuracy is improved considerably with no change in velocity. If you look at your new RP cases (or Lapua), you will see a pink hue and some heat discoloring. This is from annealing. All factory ammo and new brass comes annealed. I find annealing every other loading really improves accuracy. Your cases will grow and fit way better.

When it comes to bullet seating depth, most reloaders find a nice accurate powder charge then play with the seating depth. This is backwards and will make you chase your tail. As the bullet depth is changed, so is the pressure curve, thus velocity and accuracy. If you set your bullet to .010 off the lands, then play with your powder charge, you will find the most accurate load possible. Keeping the bullet close to the lands minimizes bullet strike damage and keeps the bullet nice and balanced. Each different bullet type will seat at a different depth. This is because the ogive can vary considerably with weight, length, and nose design. The bullet seating depth tool will measure this for you no matter what bullet you use.

Last but not least is the rifling twist rate. If you want to optimize accuracy, you must match your velocity to the twist rate in order to keep the bullet stable down range. Most any bullet will maintain stability for at least 100 yds. After that, if the bullet isn't spinning fast enough, it will start to wobble and loose accuracy. If you see oval holes, or worse yet, keyholes in your target at 200 or 300 yds, it's a sure sign your bullets aren't spinning fast enough.

The bullet spin speed is determined by the rifling twist rate and velocity. You can't change your rifling short of changing the barrel so you must adjust your velocity. If the velocity is too fast, the bullet will skid across the lands and grooves and act like a file. This will be evident when you see excessive copper fouling in the barrel and spread groups.  If the velocity is too slow, the bullet will wobble.  The formula for velocity range in a 30-'06 is: 250 times twist rate, plus or minus 10%. Example: if your twist rate was 1:12, then multiply 250 times 12, or 3000 fps. Your velocity should fall between (.9 times 3000 = 2700; 1.1 times 3000 = 3300) 2700-3300 fps with 3000 fps as optimum. Next you have to find a bullet weight and powder charge that you can safely drive to velocities within that range.

Sorry for the long post but if you want to squeak some better accuracy out of old Betsy, give these techniques a try.
GLB

Offline Dusty Miller

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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2004, 09:15:01 AM »
Thanks Iowegan, I get the picture now.  My knowledge of rifle reloading is so shallow I'm afraid it really shows!  I'll be paying more attention to my case length in the future.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline firstshot

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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2004, 05:15:34 PM »
Iowegan

Thanks for the info.  Will definitely try the annealing.

firstshot
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Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun !!