Which elite 4200 is best?

[emet61]

I have a 30.06 husquavarna and want to put one of bushnell's 4200 elite scopes on it. Eventually I will buy a magnum and want a scope that will be good for either. I hunt deer and elk and want opinions on which model might be better for me. I have been looking at the 2.5x10 40mm firefly, the 2.5x 10 without, and the 4x16. I would appreciate some help.
Thanks

[Steelhead]

Well if you can't hit a deer or elk with 10x power, might as well stay home. I assume the 4-16 has an AO which is something I wouldn't want for a big game rifle. Remember the magnum doesn't extend your range, only abilities behind the trigger do that. You CERTAINLY don't need more then 10x for deer and elk.

[7magWoodsman]

Well if you can't hit a deer or elk with 10x power, might as well stay home. I assume the 4-16 has an AO which is something I wouldn't want for a big game rifle. Remember the magnum doesn't extend your range, only abilities behind the trigger do that. You CERTAINLY don't need more then 10x for deer and elk.

Can't say it no better than that...I would get the model without the firefly, It does work but requires a flashlight(which is cool, but I dont like using a light unless i am following blood)and am a firm believer in any light can/will adjust your eye to light and not dark(which is what you DONT want) My Dad taught me something when I was little and have posted it elsewhere but...In dark conditions when you need to see just a little better close your eyes and count 1-1000 to 10-1000 and then open your eyes("superboost" Dad called it), you wont have long but you will have long enough for the shot(sometimes it does not take a full 10 seconds)...try it sometimes in a dark room in your house or outside.

[Cabin4]

Remember the magnum doesn't extend your range, only abilities behind the trigger do that. You CERTAINLY don't need more then 10x for deer and elk.

Magnum does extend killing range. Ability behind the trigger is also required and is the "enabler" of extended magnum range. With this in mind, a higher power scope may be one of the "enablers" of effectively extending range of a magnum depending on hunting circumstances.

[Steelhead]

No a MAGNUM by itself DOES NOT extend "Killing Range." (whatever the heck that is). Bullet placement and bullet performance are of merit, not the MAGNUM nameplate. Footpounds and velocity are not in of themselves "killers" of game. As long as the bullet gets to the intended target and acts responsibly all is well.

Please define "Killing Range".

[Cabin4]

No a MAGNUM by itself DOES NOT extend "Killing Range." (whatever the heck that is). Bullet placement and bullet performance are of merit, not the MAGNUM nameplate. Footpounds and velocity are not in of themselves "killers" of game. As long as the bullet gets to the intended target and acts responsibly all is well.

Please define "Killing Range".

I agree that magnum by itself is not the answer. However, in the context of this tread, magnum as compared to its non- magnum brother. Such as a 30-06 compared to 300win mag or the 257 roberts compared to the 257 weatherby mag or the 7mm compared the 7mm rem mag.

In this context, mag provides longer range kill capability. As an example, one may feel a  30-06 to have a 300 yard kill max range on elk compared to the 300 win mag to 400yards. Something like this.

To add tho this, one may feel more capable with a higher power scope as an added measure of accuracy/capability going from the non-mag to the mag version.

[Steelhead]

I understand what you are saying, but I still believe a GOOD 06 is just as effective as a 300Mag, even more so with todays bullets. I believe to notice ANY measurable difference in "killing ability" one needs to move up in caliber and weight, not velocity. A 338 WM is a good step above the 30/06, but all a 300Mag does is give a few hundered fps (if that). I truly believe that only buys you a few extra inches at extended range, and the doesn't mean squat. Even with a 300 mag, if you think he is 400 yards and is actually 460 you are still off by over a foot.

 

The biggest problem I see with a 16x scope is the belief that if I can see the animal that well I can certainly hit him, and I do believe that happens more often then not. If it looks to small to make the shot in a 6x scope it's because he his too damn far. The added advantage to using say a fixed 6x scope on a long range rifle is the deer are always the same size. You can easily use the scope for a rangefinder, but if you are looking at deer at 4x on time, 10x the next etc, you can't get use to what a deer at 300 yards should look like in your scope.

Now all of the above certainly don't apply to those that apply themselves. Spend countless days shooting from field positions at 400 yards with a 20mph cross wind and burn out 2 barrels getting GOOD at it. And of course I am sure the most hunters do that. :roll:

That's my story and I am sticking to it.......................

[Cabin4]

As an example with the 30-06 versus the 300 win mag using a 180 grain bullet, the 300 win mag has the same energy&velocity at 400 yards as the 30-06 has at 300 yards. Too add to this mess, the 300 Weatherby mag has nearly the same energy/velocity at 500 yards.

So, if one feels that the 30-06 is a 300 yard elk gun, this same person would have to assume the 300 win mag is a 400 yard elk gun and the weatherby a 500 yard elk gun.

I am not a big fan of the magnum mania going on. But there is an advantage when increasing velocity of the same bullet. To me this converts to extended range. If adding velocity does not extend range of same bullet, then I don't know what it's suppose to do.

[Steelhead]

First off, I had that I have aided in HI-Jacking this post.

Get the 2.5-10x40mm without the Firefly

So, if one feels that the 30-06 is a 300 yard elk gun, this same person would have to assume the 300 win mag is a 400 yard elk gun

How does one determine at what range something is or isn't an elk rifle? I don't by in the the FOOT POUNDS theory myself. But let us assume that is the criteria you are using.

300Win Mag, WSM -  180 grain bullet at 3000fps,

30/06- 180gr bullet at 2800fps  (we can range up or down a bit, but I will run with these numbers).

At 400 yards the difference in Foot Pounds is about 280. Pretty much the energy level of a 22magnum 40gr bullet at 1800fps, surely you can't have me believe the difference in elk steaks and one happily running over the mountain top is dependent on the energy difference of a 22 magnum?

Lets say you are an "Energy Dump" guy. The 300Mag exits the elk at 400 yards, since it is a good bullet the 180 now weighs 170 grains, and has expanded to .600. The velocity as it leaves the elk is now at 750fps. So we have a .600 diameter bullet at 750fps exiting the elk, with 240 foot pounds left.

Now the 30/06 decides to stay on the offside shoulder, it has "dumped" all its energy in the elk. The 300 Mag took 240 pounds with it on exit, so now the difference between the two is about 40 foot pounds (about what you get with a rock in a sling shot). So is that going to make the difference?

As long as the bullet goes through the vitals, and if it is a small caliber, has enough velocity to ensure some expansion along with penetration guess what..........dead elk. I don't care what the difference in "Foot Pounds" is.

I can drill through both shoulders of a deer with a 45 Colt and some hardcast bullets doing 1100 fps (for a total of about 800 pounds of energy AT THE MUZZLE). How about the boys with BIG CAST bullets killing Bison at silly yardages.

Nope, foot pounds doesn't wash it with me. Not in of itself anyway. To many other variables to consider

[Cabin4]

Steelhead,

Your missing my point entirely. No I am not an energy dump nut. You will find many posts here of mine making the same points about the misleading energy numbers. However, when energy is an important and meaningful  measurement when comparing the same exact bullet. I do beleive looking at energy when comparing differant bullets of differant calibers it becomes somewhat meaningless.


In my example it is the same exact 180 grain Rem Core-Lok Ultra. Rem loads this bullet for the 3 cartridges I mentioned. In this case the energy# are as follows:

30-06 @ 300 yards = 1666
300mag @ 400 yards = 1683
300 weatherby mag @ 500 yards = 1561

Again, this is the same exact bullet in a factory load.

My example then assumes that this ficticious person beleives when shooting this load from his 30-06, it is a max range 300 yard elk gun. My only point is that if this same fisticious person believes this to be fact, then this same person must accept the following two facts in addition:

1. the 300 win mag is a 400 yard elk gun  and
2. the 300 weatherby mag is a 500 yard elk gun.

The point, if the energy is the same from the same bullet--then it will kill the same.

Thats my point. Weather this is in fact actual fact is inmaterial to my point. However, there are certain logical assumptions I have made. Perhaps another guy believes this load is a 400 yard elk gun from the 30-06. So be it, then this same person must then accept the fact theat the 300mag extends the range by 100 yards and the 300 weatherby extends it by an additional 200 yards. Again its the same bullet and if its energy is the same at the differant distances, it will kill the same.

I do beleive there is some real truth & utility to the magnum calibers. From my perspective, it extends the range of killing capability. There must be some advantage to a magnum caliber when comparing it to its non mag brother.

Are you saying that there is no useful advantage in a magnum over its non-mag brother ?

[7magWoodsman]

The main reason I don't like HIGH power scopes(10-16x) is because you "see" yourself shake so much...when you see yourself shake it has a tendancy to make yourself nervous and "may"cause you to shake a little more, with practice I am positive you can overcome this but also keep in mind that you are hunting deer/elk not a little 2 inch wide prairie rat...and as far as magnum vs 30'06 goes I think it is totally abought the shooter, before I had my 7mag I used a 06(which I still have) and to be truthfull If I want it dead it dont matter which rifle I have it WILL be dead, and if you can't hit something at to 400 yards with an 06 and practice you are not going to do it with a magnum either....if you want to argue this go find an old sniper from WWII and tell him you "HAVE" to have a 300 magnum and a 16 power scope to shoot something the size of a deer at 400 yards or better yet tell a sniper from Vietnam you cant shoot 400 yards with a 308 with out 10x+ magnification and as for power a good well placed bullet will work no matter what, and also unless I am wrong people have killed and will continue to kill all animals in North America with a 30-30...just my $1.00 on the forum...thanks for reading, and sorry for the length.

[Zachary]

I have all of the scopes mentioned.  In fact, I have more.  Specifically, I have a 2.5x-10x-40mm without firefly, a 1.5x-4.5x-32mm with firefly, a 4x-16x-40mm without firefly and a 4x-16x50mm without firefly.

I like the firefly during the dark times, but I DON'T like it during daylight - the cross hairs are just too thick during the day.

As for the 4x-16x, in the Elite 4200 with the 40mm objectives, it has 3.5" of eye relief, and the 50mm version has 3.6" of eye relief.  I think that the 2.5x-10x-40mm only has 3.3" of eye relief.  Additionally, I agree that you don't need a 16x for elk, but some shooters, like myself, seem to be more accurate at the higher magnifications - don't ask me why, I just am.  Plus, and this is just a plus mind you, it's nice to have a higher powered scope at the range.

Zachary