Help: Judging Colt Navy Finish/Bluing?

[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

   I have recently gotten interested in collecting original Colt Navies and 1849 Pocket models.  I have tried to do my homework and read everything I can find.  However, there is something that keeps coming up.

   As you know, the value of the pistol depends very very heavily on the percentage of orginal finish remaining on the gun.  When the guns were originally produced, the barrels and cylinders were blued.

   Here is the problem:  I repeatedly see pictures and descriptions of very nice looking Colts that say the following:   "Finish has turned to a nice even plum color, with traces of original bluing showing through."  

   OK, so what does that mean?  Does this nice even plum color "count" as being original finish left on the gun?  Or is this just a fancy word for a nice even rust patina that has accumulated on the gun after the original bluing wore off?   (And therefore, the plum color counts as zero in terms of rating the gun based on original finish?)

   This comes up with about 50% of the guns I see.  The guns actually look great, and may be in great mechanical condition, but whenever this "nice even plum color" is contained in the description, the seller always rates the gun as a "solid fine."  If it aint' blueing, though, how can the gun rate as "fine"?

    Thanks for all help and advice on this.

Big Paulie

[HWooldridge]

I'm not an expert in this field but I have an original 1860 and it is brown.  It belonged to G-G-G-G-Grandpa in the War and he used it extensively but after his death it was kept in various gun cases until finally handed down to me.  It is not blue in any place but is smooth to the touch - not heavy rust - just satin brown.  I think this color might be natural for a gun that saw heavy use.  The only "blue" ones will be those that were kept in presentation cases and not shot much.

[filmokentucky]

The "nice, even plum color" should refer to blueing that has turned to --
well, a nice, even plum color. However. these days, it often refers to a nice, even rust coating that has been oiled. It is often difficult to tell from a photograph just which surface you are looking at. A reputable dealer will be up front about this and there usually is a grace period in which you
can return the piece for a full refund.
    An original piece with actual blueing remaining is going to have a fairly
stiff price attached  to it, so that might be one indication of what you are getting. Probably the best way--or at least the surest way to know what you are buying---is to frequent antique gun shows. They are an education in themselves and you'll meet some fine people, too. I hope this is of some help to you.

[Ramrod]

Most folks try to stick to the NRA standards, but since thers are really two, one for modern guns, and a seperate and very differant standard for antiques, it's no wonder there is some confusion. Antique "fine" does not mean all original bluing remains.

[Flint]

The refinish standards in the manuals for the Colts issued to the Army were to refinish with a rust brown.  It was probably outside the ability of the Army repair facilities to reblue as Colt had in the factory.

Since most 1851 and 1860 revolvers were used by the military during and after the Civil War, many may have been refinished in the field.

[filmokentucky]

The term "rust brown" as used in the old days is a problem in that it often means rust blue. Years ago, an old timer used the term rust brown to describe the finish on an obviously blued '92 Winchester. When I mentioned this to him (with some trepidation as I was only a kid) he explained that in the past the finish on firearms was usually called browning even if the color produced wasn't actually brown. Later, I read an article or a desription in a firearms book that seemed to support this.
But it still strikes me as quaint, to say the least.

[Sundown Holly]

A lot of the old guns when originally done in the old style bluing would eventually turn "plum brown."  This wasn't some nice old gun that was rusted after the bluing had worn off, but rather was the actual bluing turned to brown.  If this is the finish on the guns you are looking at than that counts as the original finish.  If it is just rust, well, that is a different story.

     Years ago I was in to building Hawkin rifles from kits, or Kentucky rifles, also from kits. To make these new "old" rifles look good you would not put a blue on them, as because the originals were not done that way. Rather, you would buy a bottle of plum brown and meticulously heat the barrel (carefully, so as not to over heat) a section at a time and then apply your plum brown.  When done right the gun would have an even brown finish that almost looked like, but was not, rust.  I had a friend who used the above process on an Italian made 1858 Remington that he wanted to use on a display and wanted to look like an original.

[1860]

Welcome to the world of collecting, keep your money in your pocket until you have everything figured out or you'll be sorry.  I collect Winchesters and often the only finish left is between the bbl. and mag tube.  If it is there, it is truely the color of a plum, a plum that is just over ripe and turning brown.

There were many types of blueing used in the 1800's including rust blueing, which is different from "Browning".  If the finish is original it will truely have a purple tint to it, sometimes it will appear rather brown but you should look at it in natural light.  Even modern blueing will turn plum, I have my first deer rifle, a 30-30 marlin, if you look close in the right light, it's starting to turn already...funny thing, already is 40-50 years ago....

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[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

     Thanks for all of the replies and info.   In just my short time of studying, I can see the plain strategy that all of these "dealers" in antique Colts use:

    Buy it for a price equal to 10% less original finish that it really has.

    Sell it for a price equal to 10% more finish that it really has.  

    If a little bit (or a lot) of lying is required in the process, then so be it.

    If you want to see this process at work, just follow the descriptions and sales of original Colt Navies on Gunbroker.com or auctionarms.com.

     Also, I am amazed at how willing these dealers are to disregard (ignore) the literal wordings of the NRA antique grading system, and call so many pieces a "solid fine."  

  Whenever I call them to task on this, by pointing out an aspect of the pistol that would prohibit it from qualifying as a grade fine, they get real real angry and say something like "I ranked it as a grade fine based on the "overall" condition of the gun as a whole."  They love to ignore small mechanical problems (which would prohibit it from being a fine), or a nice big ugly rust pock (which would prohibit it from being a fine).   They also love to ignore the fact that wooden grips have been totally stripped, sanded  and re-finished (by saying that as long as there is 30% of original finish left on the metal, then the gun still qualifies as fine.)  

    I thought I was getting into a gentlemen's type of hobby, only to find that it is full of liars and scumbags.
 
   Best Regards,

    Big Paulie

[filmokentucky]

It is a gentleman's hobby, Paulie. Those liars and scumbags are just out there on the periphery of it.
  Go to the antique gun shows- that is where the gentlemen are. And get a copy or two of Man At Arms, the NRA's collector's journal. It is edited by
Stuart Mowbray-one of the afore mentioned Gentlemen. The photography and articles are first rate and much useful information is in each issue.
  Collecting antique firearms is an honorable and worthwhile hobby; after-
all,you are preserving an important part of history. A tangible and elegant part at that.
  So, don't be disillusioned by by the charlatans you see-instead seek out the quality people as you would seek out the quality revolvers. Chances are you will find them in the same place.

[Ramrod]

filmokentucky has said a mouthfull. Forget about the internet swindlers. Go to the shows, talk to the exhibitors, there are some real fine gentleman out there, real historians and collectors. You can tell almost as soon as they open their mouths. Ignore the jerks and move on. Most of the really old fellas are an amazing source of information. Never pay asking price, but don't insult them and you can almost always work something out.

[1860]

Like I said, keep your money in your pocket until you are sure!!!  The liars are nothing new, Jessie James wife is known to have sold quite a few guns that she offered as "Jessie's gun".   Collecting is a fine hobby, lots of fun and done right, a good investment.   Done wrong and you seem to already know what will happen...

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[MOGorilla]

I don't want to knock Auctionarms, the one site I really looked at regularly for a while, but a year or two ago, there was a guy selling "an original Civil War derringer" for $500.  It was an obvious fake made from a $75 kit from Dixie.  I saw a bid on it and dropped the bidder an email, giving nothing but a link to the Dixie page containing the kit.  I got one nasty email from the seller.  In the grand scheme, I try and keep my nose in my own business, but I hate when people mess with my hobby and sport.  In short the extremely nasty email said he had gotten taken on the pistol and was trying to get his money back, being the same crook he was taken by.  I notice on Auction arms that most of the C&B revolvers, I am talking repos now, go for more than what I can get a new one at Cabela's.   I would avoid buying any antique on the internet unless it is a reputable dealer who has a return policy firmly stated.

[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

    Thanks for all of the positive information.  It makes me feel better about the hobby.  I have not been to an antique gun show yet, so I am now excited about going.

    My sole experiences so far have been on the internet, being Auction Arms and Gunbroker.

    In one instance, before bidding on a Colt Navy, I sent an e-mail to the Seller, asking very very specific questions. One question was: "Have the wooden grips on the revolver been sanded, stripped, or re-finished?"  The answer I got back in writing was: NO.   Another question was: "Has the brass trigger guard and back straps on the revolver been stripped or polished?"  The answer I got back in writing was: NO.

   I won the bid, and paid $2,100 for a Colt Navy which, by description, would have been a grade fine.

   Upon receipt of the Revolver, it was plain as day.  The grips were sanded as smooth as a baby's bottom, without a single mar or dent, and they had been hand refinished in a flat, walnut, oil stain.     The trigger guard and backstraps were the most beautiful, highly polished, bright colored brass that you ever saw, without a hint of silver and without a hint of tarnish or patina.

   Within 10 minutes of receiving the revolver, I sent a written e-mail to the Seller, reminding him of his prior answers, and advising him that the revolver did not meet his descriptions.  I advised him that pursuant to the 48 hour return policy of the auction board, I was immediately returning the revolver to him for a full refund.

      This guy wrote back, extremely rude, and said that he would take the revolver back, but that he was being totally screwed because he had paid shipping and handling on the piece (about $15.00), and that he had been required to pay some type of $25 transaction fee to the auction board.  He also said that he would not refund my money unless he received it back within 72 hours.  He also said that he didn't know very much about antique revolvers, and so he didn't know that his answers had been wrong when he had sent them to me.  He said that he mainly dealt in modern revolvers.

      I wrote back and told him that if he was screwed, then he had screwed himself, and that I would be happy to post all of our correspondence on the message board of the auction site for all to see.   I also told him that I was not required to return the gun within 72 hours.  I was only required to notify him within 48 hours (which I had done) and return the gun within 7 days.

      I also offered, if he desired, to work out an arrangement with him, by which I would accept the revolver if he would reduce the price to the proper grade it was in.  He was furious, and said that he would never agree to this, and that he already had another buyer "lined up" to pay a high price for the revolver.

    When I returned the revolver, I got my money back about 5 days later.  But, of course, I was out the $10.00 I had paid for the original cashier's check, and the $20.00 I had paid to ship it back to him for rapid return, fully insured.

    So, that is my bad experience so far.  I think I'd better stick to antique shows.

Best Regards,

Big Paulie

[Ramrod]

Just a word about rust bluing. It is nothing like the modern hot blueing process used today. The way the old guns were "blued" was actually a brown rusting process whereby an acid solution was applied to the metal over a period of days, and the rust rubbed off ("carded" is the proper term), between aplications. The parts were kept warm and damp to let the rust form. After a while a nice brown color appears. The parts are then put in boiling water and they turn a deep bright blue, nothing like the modern black we all call bluing. Over many years, the blue slowly reverts to it's original rust color, hence the "plum brown".

[1860]

Paulie,

When dealing on the internet, after asking you questions via email. get the sellers phone number and call him.  No phone number, no deal, but if you do talk, tell him up front what you expect and not to waste anyones time with fakes or false info.  I do alot of trading on the internet and there are a bunch of crumbs out there and some fine gus as well.

Example:  I bought a real nice 73 Winchester from a guy, we exchanged emails prior to the bid and then talked on the phone.  When I got the gun there was a 1 inch hairline crack in the stock, you had to catch it in the right light.  I called him back and we worked a deal, I kept the gun and he sent me money back, it made it a fair deal.   A week later he called me and said he had just gotten another 73 that was in great condition, except the mag tube had been cut back about an inch.  In our previous conversations I had mentioned I was looking for a gun to shoot and he said this would do great.  He sent the gun to me, before I sent any money although he told me what he wanted, he also told me to shoot it and tell him what I thought.  This guy was from another part of the country and just sent me a gun without any money, and what a gun it is.  Without a doubt, the tightest action of any 73 I've handled, bright shiny bore, perfect wood, metal and sights, just the mag tube had been cut.   Anyone who knows Winchesters will know what I mean when I say, the dust cover still snaps shut, the lever snaps up with authority, it has deep rifling, it pops the shells out while moving the lever slow, even the front sight had virtually no wear-If I was a crook I could replace the mag tube and sell it for 4-5 times my purchase price.  Go slow Paul..

Ramrod,

Right you are...I know you from some other board, was it Shooters??

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There are good people out there, besides knowing your guns, you need to be able to size up the seller and protect youself with written emails as back up.

[mec]

here's a fakenavy that's been plum browned with a birchwood casey treatment.  


and here's an original Walker that is considered one of -if not the best of these in a private collection:

[1860]

Paulie,

I'm not Questioning your return of the revolver or the condition it was in, from your description it seems the seller was wrong.  But as a seller on the internet, I am very leary when a buyer first complains about the gun and then comes back and offers to "keep" it at a lower price.  While I'd not be rude, I would not lower my price.  Just simply exchange the gun for his original purchase price and move on.  It's becoming a common tactic on internet sales for buyers to use the return policy as leverage for a lower price, just as it's been a tactic of some sellers to exagerate the condition of their guns.  That's why phone conversations are so important, you can learn alot about a person by talking to them if you read between the lines, even on the phone.

MEC,

Nice looking Navy, the brass need to be dulled some and the wood is a little shiney but it's a good lookin pc.  When I get a chance I'll post a pic of my 92 Win Carbine that's my shooter.  It was a sloppy refinish when I bought it and it now looks "original" :wink:

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[mec]

The brass has nastied down nicely since that picture.  The grips are some sort of mystery wood.  Intersting revolver though. I bought it assembled, no front bead, no finish. A local guy had bought a bunch of them all in boxes with Colt literature in them.  There is not a single mark on the guns- no proof no makers mark. The only hint is the grip profile is non-standard and looks just like Pietta.

What appears to have happened is Colt put out an order for  some guns to turn into Colt Second Generations, took one look at these and went " we been gypped!"  Then sold off the package as a bad bargain.  Either that or somebody swiped the shipment along with the colt boxes but Im inclined to believe the former.  No doubt part of the learning process that made Colt stick with Uberti.

[filmokentucky]

The Colt second generation revolvers were brought in as rough forged
frames and barrels- and finished here with the other parts made here. They didn't rebuild or refinish completed firearms. If your Navy is a Colt it will be marked COLTS PATENT in two lines on the left side of the frame forward of the trigger guard and and ADDRESS SAML COLT NEW-YORK CITY on the top flat of the barrel. Even if it's been refinished, these markings should still be legible.
    I've got a couple of Ubertis that I built years ago from kits and removed all the markings from. No makers name and no Italian proof marks. I suppose in 50 years they'll be "mystery" guns, too. This may be how your Navy came to be unmarked and how it came by it's finish.

[mec]

This was a complete gun except for the sights. The grips were finished but he rest was rough like a kit gun. No finish.  No evidence of markins anywhere on it.  I believe this is a bigh Italian No-No if the gun is assembled over there but the parts were pure lower case italian.  had to replace the trigger/bolt spring immediately and the bolt pretty quickly because they were non-heat treated and brittle.  

It definately does not fit into the various versions of how the Colt re issues came about but did come with colt literature.

[Big Paulie]

Dears MEC,

Thanks for the reply and info.  I am new to buying on the internet, so I was not aware that buyers are using the scam you discussed to get a price discount.  The only reason I offered to keep the revolver for a lesser price was that I thought that I was doing the guy a favor.  I didn't want a gun less than fine in my collection.

     I would also tell you that I have on three or four occasions called the internet seller in advance to discuss the exact details of the condition of the piece before buying, and they have gotten super defensive and sometimes downright angry when, after listening to their explanations, I politely advise them that the piece does not meet the literal words of the NRA grading system for the grade they are advertising. (They always seem to want to ignore 3 or 4 words of the grading system, and say that if it is almost fine, then it is fine, particularly when there is a small mechanical defect, or there is a single large unsightly rust pock on the piece.) Wrong, it is either fine or it is not.

     What is worse, after I talk to them, they don't change their description on the auction board.  They continue to perpetuate the false description.

    That is why I say that these bad actors always try to sell it for one grade higher than it truly is.

  On the other hand, I have had two very good experiences in buying Colt 1849 pocket models on the auction sites.  They arrived exactly as described.

Best Regards,  Big Paulie

[1860]

Mec,

You may be right about the 2nd generation Colt.  I know the guy who ran the shop where they assembled/finished the 2nd generation colts, he had a well known store in my area for years.  He also had a large supply of parts from that time.  I have barrels for both the 51 navy and 1860 Army, both semi finished and absolutely no markings on them, they came with a bunch of other stuff he gave me shortly befor his death.  He was a great guy, and knew Maria Uberti very well.

I also have an odd gun, another dealer I know picked it up at a gun show years ago for me.  It's an 1860 Richards/Masson, modern made, and not one single marking on it anywhere, nadda...It is absolutely the tighest revolver I've seen, in fact I had to loosen it up some so it would function with BP loads and it shoots as good or better than any modern revolver (S&W or etc) that I've seen.  The blueing is like a mirror, silver trigger guard and backstrap, just a great pc.

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