Heard a rumor about Remington the other day?

[S.B.]

Is Remington manufacturing their double shotgun in Russia? If so, I feel a great sense of disappointment with this deal. I've always been a faithful supporter of Remington and a union worker, born and living in the U.S.. I've always paid the price increases without faltering and even if I couldn't see the benefit of more money. "Made in America", means something to me! With the enormous trade deficit and too many worker in the U.S. out of work, this, in my opinion is a very bad decision by Tommy Millner, CEO of Remington. I got on their website and tried to email Mr. Millner but, he doesn't have a direct link to his office. Just makes me wonder if he thinks himself above all this?
I would like to hear others views on this? But, please don't quote world economy (even Allen Greenspan say we have to turn this around) to me, we all know America is hurting in the trade area, so that won't wash anymore.

[cma g21]

I believe Remington is importing Baikal shotguns and selling them under the, "Spartan Gunworks by Remington," label.

[S.B.]

cma g21, that's not the rumor I heard? I heard they are manufacturing their (Remington) double in Russia? Any truth to this?

[NONYA]

OK #1 I am a huge Remington fan and all but one of my rifles/shotguns is a Remington and I inherited that one.Those Spartan shotguns are POS,I was excited to hear about a new line and I was looking foward to owning a side by side Rem.when they hit the stores I checked them out and they are S**T!Major disappointment!Remington has entered a new market of affordable,lower priced guns and they suck,that new 710 or whatever it is is a POS and i bought one of thier new semi auto .22s and ended up RETURNING it!The action was so sloppy it jammed after about every 3 rnds.,they said they have had many returned ,anyways Im very upset about Remingtons new direction.

[cma g21]

cma g21, that's not the rumor I heard? I heard they are manufacturing their (Remington) double in Russia? Any truth to this?

http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/shooting/shotguns/article/0,13199,1016462,00.html

http://www.donaldsensing.com/2004/09/shotgun-news-break.html

[Rogmatt]

I find most folk who criticize these guns are folk who have never owned one or put one to the test over a period of time. Every Baikal/Spartan owner I know loves their gun and thinks it's the best value of any gun they have ever purchased. I know for a fact they are built like tanks. It's not how much a gun cost, but how well it is made. Some people still have not learned that lesson.

Here is a letter I recieved from Keith B. (President of EAA) just before he turned distributorship of the Baikal line over to Remington Spartan:

Dear Roger

I am not the best letter writer and as you can see many times you get answers from my Black Berry since I am on the road some where in the world.

Baikal - correct would be Izhevsk Mechanisky Zavod or for short IMZ. This is the company that owns the trade mark Baikal after the fall of the USSR. Durring the USSR times all guns exported from Russia were called Baikal and they were made by different factories. A factory in Russia in the USSR times was called a Zavod (or home of the people). Literally they were the home of the people they supplied: work, social events, housing, income, medicial, cultural events, supported universities, etc. Today this is gone. The Zavod is like in the USA a place to work and some social things like volly ball games or contests.

You may ask how did EAA come to work with IMZ? Simple, as an engineer I saw products with a foundation that were correct. The first meetings were hard and I could write a book on the experiences. Today Baikal products are technically correct and configured mostly correct for USA taste and are safe or safer than most products in the industy. Yes, we are not as pretty as some, but we say looks are only skin deep.

Want a gun to hunt or use, buy a Baikal, want a gun to hang on the wall and look at, buy the competition.

As you know today Baikal (IMZ) is working with Remington to build the Spartan line. This working relationship complements IMZ and Remington and further proves my origial thoughts that the IMZ product was techinally correct. To be approved to carry the Remington logo each model must go through a series of destructive and nondestructive test. The IMZ products passed the test and in some cases surprised the testors and IMZ engineers.

An example of how far IMZ has come is the MP153. A reasonable price semi auto that runs 3.5” to 2.75” 12ga. Let's just say we did this project in record time and used engineers around the world. Had we not had e-mail we could of never acomplished this project in such a short time.

In 2005 you will see many new items from IMZ including the MP221 or MR221 and the IZH18MH or IZH18MN. These two guns took a treaty amendent between the USA and Russia.

Roger I am writing this on my hand held so it needs to be cleaned up before it can be printed. So if you could do this and pass it back for my final approval. I am a product of Florida schools and we were the guys that could not determin what a chad was.

Thanks

Keith


http://www.spartangunworks.com/

http://www.baikalinc.ru/eng/prod/rifle/

[S.B.]

Rogmatt, to each his own but, may the ones who prefer to buy foreign goods be the first families to feel the crunch of less work in this country. Buy American!!!!! Keep Americans employed.

[Bullseye]

Well I have had the first hand experience.  I bought a Savage Stevens SXS last year, which is made by Baikal.  Total POS.  The trigger on one barrel pulled at 10.5 lbs and the other was 9.5 lbs.  After missing a squirrel at 15 yards, shooting it again at ten yards and finding 2 pellets in it, I began to wonder.  Then missed two more.  Decided to pattern the gun.  There was no hot spot in the pattern and what pattern was there was nowhere near where the gun was aimed, with either barrel.  You could set a couple squirrels out there and totally miss them.  The thing broke open very hard, which I thought would get better with time, wrong.  Rust was also a problem.  Bought it on a whim, lost my butt getting rid of it.  Am I somehow supposed to think that the Spartan Baikal is somehow magically better?  I doubt that it is.  You get what you pay for, and you do not get much of a double barrel for that price, foreign of US made.

If you want one, go for it.  But I would sure check it out good first.

[S.B.]

Bullseye, go figure. We've been doing the R&D for foreign gun makers (Taruas,  etc.)for free, too much lately. They sell their wares over here and we go to the unemployment line. Before you know it, there ain't no American manufactures left and corporations blame it on the American workers, all the time investing in overseas companies, made up of sweat shops and treating their employees like dirt? No wonder Americas reputation overseas is in the dump.

[Ramrod]

I love these "Buy American" threads. Just like on the rifle boards, everyone complains about American quality on the $300-$600 guns. I always tell them to spend $1000 if they want somethig decent. The response is always the same. "I can get this Brand X from Europe for less money, and it is a better gun.
Well, here too, there is no way an American gun company can sell a good American made side by side shotgun at a price  the "local yokels" will pay. And you can blame the high cost of buissiness on the government, or on the lazy union help, or on Rem-chester, whichever you prefer. But when it cost, say $800 to make a quality gun, it's gonna retail much higher, and it is not going to sell well. So if you are only willing to pay for crap, that is all you are going to get.

[S.B.]

I think you need to reread these post. No one has complained about the cost of American goods? Where did you get these ideas?

[Ramrod]

S.B., Remington is not manufacturing anything in Russia. Like cma g21 said, they are importing Baikal guns under the Spartan brand name.
My post was an attempt to explain why Remington has to go to Russia if they want to sell a double gun. When you factor in all the costs to make it here, it would probably have to sell for 2 or 3 times as much, meaning they would not be able to sell anything. No, no one was complaining about the cost of American guns, but no one would buy these doubles if they were made here. Can't blame Remington. Savage is doing the same thing with the 411 double.

[1911crazy]

I have to say I just purchased two Russian Izmash manufactured Saiga's their actually built on a AK47 design just like their semi-auto shotguns are and i'm hammering one of them to no end it just won't quit, won't jam and it spits out the 308 round like no other gun I have ever owned or shot yet and its accurate too.  I can sendany type of ammo down the pipe because of its chrome lined barrel & chamber too.  I was so impressed with the performance of this Saiga the minute i returned from the north country I went back to the gun shop to buy a second one for my son to hunt with.  The boys in the north country liked it too after they shot it. These Russian guns are manufactured with the same quality as an ak47 by the same people.  Now with their shotguns i have only heard great feed back about them too.  Its a fact that since '94 the quality of Remington products has fallen off.  I had two bad 12ga remington 1100's back to back and my third one finally cycled I didn't trust it so i traded it in at a pawn shop.  Lets face it its a fact that american companies are doing joint ventures to survive now with companies who are entering the market here in the US.  I think that Remington joining forces with the Russian Baikal(there's a few companies) is a great thing for us its a great product and it will stabilize the gun market prices too.  It just may bring the prices down and start a price war between the gun manufacturers here which is long over due.  Its a win/win for us the consumer in the long run.  We are going to see better made quality products at affordable prices.  I look forward to owning more Russian made quality guns.  Since Remington was and has been losing market share they had to do something quick with these new russian manufactured shotguns gaining popularity here in the US.  Its the only was an american company can compete.  Its about manufacturing costs and the bottomline profits lets face it its all about survival too.  I look forward to seeing more of their products selling here in the US.                                                                          BigBill

I worked for a company who started here in the US and the owner/inventor went to europe in the late 1800's and got a foot hold there too.  Right now they have manufacturing in every other country right now but none in the US.  It costs too much to manufactuer here. What they do now is to develop (engineer) in the US and send it over seas to be manufactured.  If these companies don't rethink and regroup to keep their share of the market there in big trouble its all about profits and survival now!!!!!!

[beemanbeme]

Ramrod, Bingo! You've hit the nail on the head.  Its also a paradox that folks whine about importing a russian made gun and in the next breath brag about how much better a say Sako is than a Remchester.

[jvs]

S.B. Wrote:
"Is Remington manufacturing their double shotgun in Russia? If so, I feel a great sense of disappointment with this deal."


I happened to spot a Baikal Shotgun at K-Marts a few months ago, so I asked to hold it and check it out.  I was not too impressed with the fit and weight or I would have bought one.  The appearance takes some getting used to also.  It seemd alot 'chunkier' than what I am accustomed to, but it seemd to be built to last a long time.

I figured it was Russia's attempt to mass market a shotgun in this country, but I don't see them selling very many.  Maybe after the Russians learn what the American consumer wants they will change things.   The Russian learning curve for free market products will take some doing on their part.

I doubt that Remington is having their shotguns manufactured in Russia, the difference in quality would be apparent on first sight.  Then again, anything is possible.

[JPSaxMan]

The Remington line of shotguns (the 870, 1100, 11-87, and O/U 332) are being made in the United States at several factories the largest being in Ilion, NY. There are several smaller factories farther south one being in Georgia and I know of one in Tenessee and I think there are several more scattered throughout the south.

Yes, the Baikal contracted guns known as Spartan Gunworks are being made in Russia. I've never seen one personally or held one but from the looks, ergh. I might wanna pay the extra bucks for American made :grin: . But who knows?  

[jvs]

I can remember many many years ago when I was in the Cub Scouts and we had to build small cars out of wood for a 'Soap Box Derby'.  Mine didn't look like much of anything but it took First Prize.

I don't mind admitting that if I had to build a Shotgun from scratch, it would look like a Baikal.  It has much to be desired.  It'll get the job done but.........

[WJM]

I purchased a Baikal 28" DB 12 gauge shotgun several years ago. I am extremely happy with it. Its seems to be built like a tank, the barrel is chrome lined, it has interchangeable chokes and the walnut wood was very good (last 2 items were optional). I bought it by it from dealers stock, so I obviously thought the fit and finish was fine (for a inexpensive gun). That is really my point, when dealing with inexpensive guns (that have a good overall design), make sure you buy it out of dealers stock, so you can be picky about wood and fit & finish. The last gun I bought was a Remington 338 RUM "enhanced" (nice engraving and better wood). I went in going to order a Remington 700 in 338 Win, fell in love with the 338 RUM and got sidetracked. I had a bunch of ammo custom (down)loaded in various energies for it. But I also had some 300 gr RN SP loaded at 2,550 fps (typical 375 H&H Mag loading).

[cal sibley]

I don't know if you guys in the US have outlets for the Russian firearms yet, but we have a gun shop here in Montreal called ArmRus that sells only Russian rifles and shotguns.  I think there are 3 or 4 of the shops in Canada now.  I dropped in for a look-see and was quite impressed.  Some of the guns are quite attractive, especially the biathalon rifles and double barreled shotguns.  Give these guys a couple years to smooth out some of the growing pains, and they'll be a force to be reckoned with.  I'm all for it if it gives us decent products at a nominal price.  It's hard to gather any sympathy for Remington today.  They haven't done much for us lately have they?  I'm all for buying American, but only if it's a decent product at a competitive price.  Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

[lyle1510]

I have a Winchester Supreme 12 ga. O/U that I shoot sporting clays with and wanted to get something that I could shoot small bore without breaking the bank.  Decided on the Spartan 20 ga. O/U.  I've only shot 1 round of clay frisbys with it so far, but I shot as well with the Spartan 20
as I do with my "Brownchester" 12.
Breaking and closing the Spartan was rather stiff, but so was my Supreme when I first shot it.  The walnut on my Spartan is beautiful, just not as polished as a Browning.  So far, I just love it.  :-)

[Dino Darnell]

amen on the buy american,and then you will always get waht you pay for.  I.B.E.W. local 365