Most efficient way to run a highpower match

[Fivepigs]

Is it more efficient to send the target setters downrange (or call them out of their bunkers) after each bank of five animals, or is it better to wait until all ten shots have been fired and send them down between relays?  Assuming limited space on the firing line, i.e. twice as many shooters on the line if targets are set after each bank of 5.  Which way will result in the shortest overall match duration?

Thanks!

[Arizona Jake]

It is more efficient to run 10 shots, then have the setters come out and set up the targets.

The lesser the number of trips, the more time the setters actually spend time replacing targets. The setters will not be as tired at the end of the match.

The lesser the number of trips, the less pause time between banks of animals, hence, faster the match will run.

 :wink:

[nomad]

fivepigs,

Apropos of nothing at all, didn't I see you at Raton a bit ago? :-D

[Fivepigs]

fivepigs,

Apropos of nothing at all, didn't I see you at Raton a bit ago? :-D

Ernie, it must have been a different fivepigs -- I didn't make it to Raton this year.  I did, however, see you in Louisiana -- we were almost on the same team for the coon-ass match.
Chris Pfeiffer

[nomad]

Sorry Chris. I know who you are -- just mixed your handle up with someone else...
(Now 57 and suffering from CRS!)

There was a LOT of discussion about this topic at Raton. I prefer ten and reset.

[Fivepigs]

Yeah, I think I prefer to shoot all ten, too.  But my question is, which is more efficient?  Supposing you've got a limited number of animals and a good turn-out -- how to make the match run quickest?

[nomad]

What we do here for local matches is set everything we have and just shoot all shots at the first animal standing, resetting only as needed.

With the conditions we have to contend with (It's often 'breezy' here in north Texas!) we usually get away with a relay and a half -- most times two full relays -- before needing a reset.

Have you considered doing it that way?

[nomad]

Chris,

Sorry, never did actually answer the question.
Jake's right -- the time waster is getting setters out and back. In my experience, shooting ten is more efficient.

[lucho]

I was at Raton and thought setting every 5 animals was a waste of time.  However after timing the setters with a stop watch and adding up the times, I found setting every five would be faster. (I also had a lesson in time management from Dan.)

However, (this is a big however) you have to use ALL the banks of animals.  So if you have 4 banks of each animal (16 total spot) and 16 shooters, everyone must shoot.  You set 8 times for the match.  This minimizes the number of relays.  That is where the time savings comes from.

If you set every 10 then you'd have two relays and set 8 time in the match.  So the number of settings (and time to set) is the same.  But you added a relay, so the match takes longer.

At Raton they didn't fill all the banks.  That is why it took longer than it had to.  Presumably this was done to acommodate spotters and shared equipment.

[K2]

If you keep the line packed shooting 5 and resetting is a faster way to run the match, you will get more entries thru per hour.  This assumes your target setters are not related to snails of course.   I have run a stopwatch on the matches and setting after 5 results in about a 20% time savings.  For small matches this may not work however as you might end up shooting without a spotter or have holes in the line.  Use what works best for your partular situation.  I have shot at matches that it seems like the main thing the organizers were interested in was going home as soon as possible.  Sort of a drag.  I have been at others where they ran so slow it could put you to sleep.  Find the balance that works best.  

Is it more efficient to send the target setters downrange (or call them out of their bunkers) after each bank of five animals, or is it better to wait until all ten shots have been fired and send them down between relays?  Assuming limited space on the firing line, i.e. twice as many shooters on the line if targets are set after each bank of 5.  Which way will result in the shortest overall match duration?

Thanks!

[nomad]

Lucho,

What #s did you come up with at Raton?
I was doing the same thing and I thought that we could have added one more relay, shot tens, fulfilled everyone's squadding needs and been finished earlier by at least half an hour. (I figured an average of 7 minutes for each reset; timing from 'target setters go' to 'return to the line' but I wasn't using a stopwatch or doing that each reset -- just glancing at my watch and making SWAGs once in a while.)

As you pointed out, making Dan's linear time thing work requires filling the line every relay and in my experience, you can't make that happen. There's always someone or some group wanting to share rifle/spotting scope/whatever and fouling the squadding. (That's not unreasonable but it clobbers the 'efficient' part of match scheduling!) You can just tell them to shut up and shoot but I don't like to do that and usually just put up with extra relays and holed lines the way we did at nats.

And we haven't even touched on the safety issue of having setters out more often, or that your line officers don't have to clear the line at the stand easy command if you're not going to put setters out or the problem of having each shooter on the line longer and the downsides there. (Ignoring the added condition changes, there ALWAYS seems to be someone who wanders off to pee or get a drink or call his girlfriend in Brazil while the setters are out and that invariably results in a call for more time to get back. That doesn't happen much when everyone knows that the 'stand easy' time will be 30 seconds between banks!)

Anyway, curious to hear what you timed...

[lucho]

I don't have the times anymore but I remember the set times being around 3-4 minute.

Remember, if you have the same number of relays its faster to set every 10.  But if you fill the line its faster to set every 5.  At Raton, they only filled half the banks.  We could have shot 10 and had the same number of relays.  That would also have been faster, but not the fastest.


As my example shows the number of times you set is the same.  So, I don't think there is more or less danger sending people down range.  Rifles racked and OBI's in of course.

[nomad]

It's only the same if you have to double the number of relays. Generally, you don't -- since you never have all the slots filled and the line is always at less than peak efficiency. (And I don't see how you can change that.)

Using Raton as an example, IIRC we ran 4 relays in std rifle for 135 shooters on 64 banks. That's not particularly efficient but it was what was needed for the requested squadding. (Keep in mind that squadding problems tend to iron themselves out as relay numbers increase since it's easier to 'fit' a small group into 5 relays than into 3 or 4...)

That's 8 resets per relay (2 for each animal) times 4 relays. 32 resets. I figured that we could have done it in 5 relays shooting 10 & reset. That's based on 32 banks for the same 135 shooters and it comes to 20 resets. That would have saved 12 times that we had to check the line and put setters out and I think that those 12 resets cost more time than another relay would.

Dunno -- maybe you're right. Or maybe the only way to really see is to run it both ways and find out!

Anyway, to answer Chris' question: Our local match procedure of 1st animal standing and keep count on the honor system works and saves a lot of time. Reset only as needed. 'Shoot around' any problems you can. Couldn't use it for registered matches, naturally, but it works well when 'the gang' gathers on a Sunday!  

[K2]

Again the assumption is keeping the line filled, if you don't or can't because of a low turn out then setting less often makes since.  Sometimes we set after 20 animals if only 4 or 5 shooters show up, with only 2 shooters on the line.  Keeping all slots on a relay filled is the most efficient way to get the most entries thru per hour.  Silhouette is by its nature labor intensive compared with paper shooting.    

It's only the same if you have to double the number of relays. Generally, you don't -- since you never have all the slots filled and the line is always at less than peak efficiency. (And I don't see how you can change that.)

Using Raton as an example, IIRC we ran 4 relays in std rifle for 135 shooters on 64 banks. That's not particularly efficient but it was what was needed for the requested squadding. (Keep in mind that squadding problems tend to iron themselves out as relay numbers increase since it's easier to 'fit' a small group into 5 relays than into 3 or 4...)

That's 8 resets per relay (2 for each animal) times 4 relays. 32 resets. I figured that we could have done it in 5 relays shooting 10 & reset. That's based on 32 banks for the same 135 shooters and it comes to 20 resets. That would have saved 12 times that we had to check the line and put setters out and I think that those 12 resets cost more time than another relay would.

Dunno -- maybe you're right. Or maybe the only way to really see is to run it both ways and find out!

Anyway, to answer Chris' question: Our local match procedure of 1st animal standing and keep count on the honor system works and saves a lot of time. Reset only as needed. 'Shoot around' any problems you can. Couldn't use it for registered matches, naturally, but it works well when 'the gang' gathers on a Sunday!  

[nomad]

In my experience, you can't fill the line.

If you think people complain about slow matches, watch the complaints roll in when you tell them that special squadding requests will only be honored if they don't interfere with keeping the line full!
 
I was in the trailer with Greg at Raton and asked about the reason for the number of relays. He showed me the squadding sheet and the special request list. It's like Spock's chess game.

The problem isn't a small turnout -- small matches run quickly enough no matter what. It's the big turnouts with the travelers that cause problems. (When Johnny doesn't want to lug a spotting scope and tripod onto the plane and needs to share with Jane and Sally but Billy wants Jane shooting with him even though Bobby and Jane want to exchange undies while Billy's shooting....)

As I said, I don't know. Maybe I'm just prejudiced against the 5 & set because I don't like standing on the line waiting all that time and prefer to shoot 5, stand easy for :30, shoot another 5 and clear the line. (That said, I really think 10 & set runs better.)

I do know that Theodore should never be allowed on the line with a stopwatch!  (I thought that he switched to timing with an hour glass after he started into the black powder stuff!) :-D And now he's recruited Lucho into his army!