Author Topic: BP accuracy? (Read 1017 times)

Jon in MI · « **on:** August 19, 2004, 04:43:16 AM »

I recently changed from 777 to Goex 2F BP and have been having a hard time finding anywhere near the accuracy I was getting out of 777. also I can only fire 3 times with any accuracy before I have to swab the bore(with 777 accuracy didnt degrade). I know I should be able to get better than I am out of BP (hardly on the paper at 100 yds). With 777 I was getting 4 groups at 100 yds. The rifle is a TVM Late Lancaster .54 cal. and my 777 load was 5 grains 4F BP and 75 grains 777. BP Im using ox yoke pre lubed .005 patches and spear .530 balls. After a very few shots I can hardly load, almost need a hammer. What Im asking is what suggestions do you have as far and other components to try, I have Hornaday balls in both .530 and .535. and I have ox yoke patches in every size up to .025. Im almost out of Goex and will need to buy more BP is there another brand I should try? TIA

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2004, 05:02:32 AM »

To equal a 70gr load of T7 with goex, I would expect to need 80-90gr of goex. An alternative I would try, would be 75-80gr of 3f, maybe more. For me that would be much more preferrable to duplex loads of T7and 4f. As you can see from the graph on the page below, T7 has quite a bit more energy than goex, so you're gonna need more to equal the load of T7 you're using. :wink:

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven/t7granular.php

Jon in MI · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2004, 05:31:43 AM »

quickdtoo, the purpose is to get an accurate load, it doesn't have to match the balistics of the 777 load, I plan to use the 777 load for hunting. I just need a load for local shoots.

crow_feather · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2004, 05:32:17 AM »

When you change components, you have to start over. 777 is different than BP and the basics need to change also. Check the threads that discuss moose milk. Use this stuff and your last shot will be the same as your first shot without ever swabing the bore tween shots.

3f is my powder of choice for my 54. For me, the accuracy is alot better than 2f. I also use an over powder patch tween the patched ball and the powder charge. Try it both ways and you can tell the difference.

Accuracy comes from consistancy, barrel health, and of course, the shooters themselves. Black powder gives me two and one-half inch groups from my Pedersoli, bench rested. Yours should be able to do as well.

Best of luck with your shootin

C F

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** August 19, 2004, 05:52:25 AM »

Quote from: Jon in MI

quickdtoo, the purpose is to get an accurate load, it doesn't have to match the balistics of the 777 load, I plan to use the 777 load for hunting. I just need a load for local shoots.

That was my point, in order to match the T7 load with goex, you're going to need ~ the same ball speed, regardless of the propellant. That means more goex in volume. As CF and i recommended, 3f would do it with less powder than 2f, although not by much. The only muzzleloader I use 2f in is a black powder shotgun cuz it tends to blow the pattern less than 3f so I can use a bit more and get away with it, helps make up for my poor clay bird shooting, sometimes! :oops: Moosemilk for a trailwalk is the best invention since the flintlock and I'd recommend it before any grease or storebought concoction. As CF said, start over with your load build, I've shot as little as 50gr 3f goex in my .54 with good accuracy, it just depends on what your rifle likes. :wink:

Jon in MI · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2004, 06:18:32 AM »

Thanks guys! I'm reading the moosemilk thread and getting some ideas. How tight should the patch/ball be? I'm guessing that the patch thickness is decided by the brand of pillow ticking you can find? figure I can get that at the local craft store. what about powders? I don't shoot a ton so if I have to spend a little more that is not a big deal. the hardest part is finding it. I do live close to Kenockee Tradin Post and I think Anson will have most anything I need.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2004, 06:49:42 AM »

Patch and ball combo should be snug but not hammer in tight. Generally a larger ball and thinner patch works well, but not always. In other words, if a .530 ball is loose with your current patch and using a thicker patch doesn't work or is not pratical, going to a .535 ball and using a bit thinner patch should work as long as it's not too tight and the patch isn't cut by the rifling. Ya just have to try what works and what doesn't.

If there is a local black powder club or shooting club near you, they usually have powder for sale or can get it in 25lb cases so the cost per lb is less. The other alternative is to order it yourself in 25lb cases and split the cost among friends if you can do it. When I shot a lot, I bought my powder 25lbs at a time and was glad to do it, saved a lot of money over buying it as I needed it. hth, Tim

roundball · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2004, 09:59:20 AM »

A .005" patch seems awfully thin...

For what it's worth, in my .54cal I use Goex FFFg, Hornady .530's, and .018" prelubed pillow ticking patches.

Targets = 60grns Goex FFFg
Hunting = 90grns Goex FFFg + OxYoke wonderwad over the powder

Extremely accurate, and shoot entire 40 shot range sessions without ever wiping between shots due to the natural lube 1000

Jon in MI · « **Reply #8 on:** August 19, 2004, 10:46:22 AM »

I think that's why I have never found a patch to read as is recommended. All I ever see is smoke rising from the grass down range. That can't be good! :oops: I have some thicker patches that I'm planning to try next. thought a lighter load that the 75 grains might be more accurate.

zrifleman · « **Reply #9 on:** August 19, 2004, 08:24:06 PM »

Jon on MI---Just a few suggestions--condition of the barrel, meaning a smooth lapped quality barrel is less likely put foul. You could try prelubing the patches with melted crisco in a pan. Its simple but works very well. I never found "wet" patches to work all that well. As to powder-no one has mentioned Swiss blackpowder. It's quite expensive but burns so clean you would think it is smokless. It's the powder of choice by a large margin in long range BP cartridge matches. I won't say it's worth the money because it is way overpriced but it is the best powder on the market. Goex at present is very dirty. As to granulation fffg works for some ffg for others. I would go with ffg a linen patch/tight ball combo and don't batter the ball when you seat it. Fire the whole works with a RWS cap. You did not say what the rate of twist is? 1-66 to 1-72 will take 90-100 grs to perform at best. 1-48 to 1-60 do better with 70-80 gr charges. There are exceptions to the rule but generally these suggestions will work. One last trick to try for fun--after you load the gun swab the barrel with isopropyl alchol to dry the barrel--see if it improves the accuracy.

WD45 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2004, 01:31:21 AM »

Just thinking a little ( I know that is dangerous so I dont do it much

)
That thin ole .005 patch may not have enough material to fill the grooves and seal the bore from blow by. That could explain not even hitting the paper. Have you found any of your patches and inspected them for being burned up or cut marks plus burn thru on the section that contacts the barrel ? This can help determine what to try or where to go next.
You can get your pillow ticking at good ole wally world. Make sure you worsh ( Thats wash fer you northerners :grin: ) it good to get the sizing out.

Jon in MI · « **Reply #11 on:** August 20, 2004, 02:27:05 AM »

I haven't been able to find a patch to read. I think they are blowing out and I do see smoke rising from the grass now and then. I don't know the twist but I'll check it out. Thanks again for all the ideas, I have a lot to try now and will report on results as I get them.

flintlock · « **Reply #12 on:** August 20, 2004, 05:58:29 AM »

Jon...I saw this post a few days ago...and thought .005 patching was a typo...I called TVM...they said you probably had a Green Mountain barrel...
as you probably know...the replicas (like the TC Hawken) have faster twist rates and shallow (sometimes even button) rifling...Your TVM rifle is a step above this its more like a semi-custom rifle...meaning it has a true round ball barrel...In other words...cut rifling and slow twist (.012 deep and 1 in 66 or 1 in 72 rifling)....and also used a softer grade steel than production guns, to reduce barrel "whip"....a .005 patch will not work with this deeper rifling...and with higher powder charges a prelubed patch will not hold up (at least not in my .54)...try a .530 ball...and a .015 patch...and lube it with whatever suits your fancy...for years I've just used Snow-Seal...but there are a lot of good lubes out there...for deer up to 100 yds...80gr of fff or ff is a plenty...when I made my .54 about 15 years ago..I wanted to use 100-120gr ff...my gun was burning patches, like yours...so I would put wasp nest material between power and ball...as I gained more experience I learned that for deer any charge between 75-100 grains is more than enough in either a .50 or a .54...I agree pretty much with what else has been posted...when you do find the right ball/patch combo...order a bullet mould...after years of competition shooting...I firmly believe that cast balls are "softer" than swaged ones, and "squat" easier when you pull the trigger...btw...my favorite cleaner is equal portions of alcohol, peroxide and Murphys oil soap..don't store in glass containers..as they will bust...just clean the barrel well after use...as the alcohol does contain water...and keep petroleum products out of the barrel...as that will "gunk" up after a few shots...flintlock

WD45 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2004, 05:37:01 AM »

Snow seal

thats interesting... I have never tried that for a patch lube.
Any body else use it

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2004, 02:40:44 PM »

Flintlock,
I have seen you refer to SnoSeal several times now, enough that I am thinking of giving it a try iffen I can find some in our local stores. But isn't that a petroleum based product?
I've been using olive oil with pretty good results. Jon in MI might look at something like that. It keeps the fouling soft. I run a cleaning patch down and back out once between shots and have no trouble reloading.

-WH-

flintlock · « **Reply #15 on:** August 24, 2004, 05:45:27 AM »

Winter Hawk...SnoSeal is mainly beeswax...I started using about 25 years ago...I've tried a lot of other lubes...I just keep a good supply of SnoSeal around, and it works well in my two flintlocks...I don't think it really matters, through the years patches and conicals have been lubed with a lot of different concoctions...I always clean between shots in competition...and usually do when squirrel hunting...with deer...one shot is all thats needed...when I'm just plinking..I can shoot several times before I need to clean...I don't like to reload quickly, after just shooting...Don't want to mess up this purty face... :-D flintlock

lostid · « **Reply #16 on:** August 24, 2004, 05:19:33 PM »

Too bring this thread back too topic,,zrifleman said it. Try swiss.
Swiss powder is the hottest, fastest, cleanest true BP on the market today, hands down! As a matter of fact, Hogdens T-7 is their answer to Swiss!
Like 7's it's near 20 a pound if ya can find it,,(Oh my goodess!! I can hear the old school squeel already!)( I can shoot all year long fer 8.95 a pound!). Ya right,,(but ya sit along side the others while the top shooters finish don't ya?).
Good powder and consistant barrel is key to true accuracy.

crow_feather · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2004, 06:51:37 PM »

I beg yer pardon Mr. lostid, but I have won quite a few prizes shootin my 54 Italian muzzle buster wit nothin but 3f Goex.

You go ahead and shoot that pricey stuff, I'll be rubin down the stock of my new shootin gun while yer blowin yer new gun out yer barrel.

best of luck to ya,

CF

lostid · « **Reply #18 on:** August 25, 2004, 08:07:21 PM »

Mr. crow_feather, I don't mean ta tell ya other powders is bad, but if'n ya really try a pound of swiss someday you'll know. sure, because it's so fast and clean you'll need to adjust some of the other stuff,,but man,, what a joy to use.
Try it. Give it the full benifit of actual hands on and the years of experiance you have ta hand. If yer using 3f in a .54,,then use 2f swiss and drop the charge by 15%, and expect a WAY different fouling pattern.
The stuff is "clean"! How do I know that? I tried it. I tried it like I was trying a new "load development",Like a new patch, or a new lube, or a new gun,,,,

I try different powders,,I learn from experiance, and I try to learn more all the tyme.

I don't shoot 5 tymes then make up my mind,,I'll shoot at least 1# just to try it,,,,,,thet might take 2 days

A lousey 20$ too try a pound and speak from experiance?? well ,,that's worth it too me. beats the heck out of "Don't ever change!","Cause that's what I know and nuthin else will ever work!!"

I'm not gonna blow my own horn about shooting well,,but buying a case of cheap powder just too shoot a bunch, ain't worth my tyme,,shot too shot accuracy is worth alot more too me than 40 rounds that are kinda close and better than most.

best wishes too ya,,really,,,,,

WD45 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 26, 2004, 01:24:32 AM »

UH... Somthing else works ..... are you sure :lol:

crow_feather · « **Reply #20 on:** August 26, 2004, 06:52:45 AM »

Mr. lostid,

I do have shot to shot consistancy, I have a clean bore each time I pull the trigger, and I do it with black powder and moose milk - no oil.

I'm not afraid to try something new, but I realize that because it's new and more powerful doesn't make it better.

Why should I try a BMW when my old Dodge pick up goes down the road just as straight.

When the range is 125 yards, black can get the job done just as well as Swiss, 777, pyro, or any of the others.

I don't dislike any of these new powders, I just don't need to waste money for something I already have.

I thank you for the information though and I wish you good shootin.

C F

lostid · « **Reply #21 on:** August 26, 2004, 07:22:47 PM »

well thank you cf, and good shootin to you too.
To be honest cf,,from my travels and shootin, I've found there to be a smattering of top shooter's in near every county or area around, at least in my region,,and I don't think that changes across the whole darn country. It's sad because many of those fellers cain't afford to go to them national shoot things, or even the state shoot things. I saw one feller show up to a 'vous and smack every target they had, he run dairy, had to leave fer chores,, said he didn't much care fer crowds. Long story short, he got "honors" but weren't there to take the prize. bueshway said he new the feller and he'd get his due($)(and I beleive it)
anyway's, the way's are many and varied. and it's hard sometymes to answer different beginners questions, or even argue one way or another fer best shooting ability/capability,,,,
I just started sumthing new. Pistol shooting. not revolver, pistloe'. I'll start a new thread maybe someone can help?