Author Topic: .270 .303???????? (Read 4823 times)

AKA Craig · « **on:** December 10, 2002, 02:05:04 PM »

what is stronger the .270 win. or the .303 british? and what one is a good hog gun? i was thinking of a 47/70 but dont how the recoil is i am 15 and what would make the recoil less

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #1 on:** December 10, 2002, 03:59:07 PM »

I am not a hog hunter, but from what I've read, all three will work nicely for you. If I were 15, and buying a rifle for the first time, I'd opt for the 303British in a #4 SMLE (Short, Magazine, Lee Enfield). They are not expensive, they hold ten rounds of amo, reasonably accurate, and, they will likely shoot right through a pig with little difficulty, and they are about as reliable as you are likely to find.

coug2wolfs · « **Reply #2 on:** December 10, 2002, 04:15:48 PM »

agree with Johhny, good place to start!

coug

AKA Craig · « **Reply #3 on:** December 10, 2002, 04:38:45 PM »

well i already have a .270 i was just wondering wich is stronger does anyone know where i can look for gunsmithing i am really intersted in being a gunsmith and would like to know how to get started thanks alot ttyl

craig

:-D

wildman · « **Reply #4 on:** December 11, 2002, 02:56:34 AM »

The .303 British would be a fine gun to start with. If it were me, I'd choose one of the shorter carbine versions. It'll be easier to handle when going through thick woods or brush. Many #4 MKI and other versions were post-war converted over to the shorter barreled carbine. You could also buy a long barreled enfield, have a good gunsmith shorten and recrown the barrel, and add synthetic stocks. You would have a short carbine, with 10rnd detachable magazine, and plenty of firepower. If you get lucky, you might even come across a 308. Ballistically speaking on factory ammo, the .308 will be higher than the .303, but less than a .30-06. .308 factory ammo is generally easier to find than the .303 Brit. With a little extra cash, you could even get a true #5 Jungle carbine. :music:

For gunsmithing, check out the following websites:
http://www.pagunsmith.com/
http://www.montgomery.cc.nc.us/gunsmith/gunsmithing.html

Mikey · « **Reply #5 on:** December 11, 2002, 09:57:17 AM »

AKA: The 270 is a great caliber but I would opt for the 303 for all the reasons the other fellas cited. In addition to the additional firepower (10 rnds versus 5) of the 303, the SMLE is the fastest bolt action ever made. I believe you can still find 205 grain loads for that 303 as well. And to be honest, I don't think the 303 gives up anything to the 308. Hay, the 303 outshot the 30-06 at the Wimbleton Cups for years until they developed a long range 190 grain bullet for the 06, so the accuracy potential is there.

In addition, if after a while you find you don't like the 303 caliber, the SMLE can be rebarreled to 45-70. In fact I believe that Gibbs remanufactures SMLEs in 45-70 caliber. But, i would choose the 303 as a first choice.

Hope this helps and bunches of good luck to ya. Mikey.

AKA Craig · « **Reply #6 on:** December 11, 2002, 12:37:02 PM »

does the 45/70 have alot of recoil if it is anything what would you compare it to?

Craig

coug2wolfs · « **Reply #7 on:** December 11, 2002, 02:37:19 PM »

AKA

Yer makin this Ole Mans head hurt :wink:

Which 45-70? Harrington and Richardson makes awhat they call a Buffalo Classic. It's got a 30 inch barrel, weighs like a truck, and shoots pleasant with factory loads.

Now a Marlin of any persuasion, be it Guide or 1895SS, with what we gun nuts feed em, well, they HURT! Oh sure, they do some impressive killin, on BOTH ends.

People percieve ( how YOU feel it ) recoil differently. A big man that stands against the thrust of a belching cannon is going to feel more pain than the man who is small and CAN'T stop it.

You have to learn to flow with the recoil, to absorb it, and yet, still be firm with the rifle or you'll never get it to group. If the gun hurts you off the bench you'll never shoot it well in the field either.

Pad up when you do bench work. Good muffs, heavy jackets, past recoil reducers, even sissy bags ( bags filled with sand or shot between you and the butt of the rifle ) go a long way to easing the beating.

Working a big bore you might fire 20 or so rounds for groups and scope/sight adjustments in a single sitting. In the field, you may fire (hopefully) the one shot.

It's hard to believe how easy it is to get the dreaded flinchitus. Denial is the biggest detrement, NOBODY really has it. I've seen guys at the range who were turning the air blue on account of they couldn't get a good group out of the new Remchester they just paid BIG froggies for. Ask em if I can have a look see. I clear the weapon, then hand it back to em makin believe I put the shells back in. You have to see the conditioned reflexes to believe it. Only thing missing was the bang, you'd swear the gun had gone off.!

Bout then they let me fire a group of 3, go look, then go home to try again another day, with a valuable lesson learned. Don't let the gun whoop on ya :lol:

Coug

AKA Craig · « **Reply #8 on:** December 12, 2002, 08:02:46 AM »

you just answered one of my question on the single shot i wanted it is a hasting and richardson thank you!!!!!

Craig

Siskiyou · « **Reply #9 on:** December 21, 2002, 04:56:33 PM »

I bought my British Mark 5 Jungle Carbine in .303 in 1960 after coming back from a summer in Northern Alberta. A friend thought it is was the best moose rifle around. I could not disagree I eat a fair amount of moose at his table. :-)

I developed hand loads for it. Only neck sizing the brass because of how the gun is designed. The battle sight is designed to shot high at 100 yards. The recoil pad on it must have been designed by a D.I. It handles 174 grain Horaday bullets great. But with a 18 inch barrel it is only a little better round then the 30-30 Win.
What is not a bad round.

For pigs I would use my .270 with 150/160 grain Nosler Partition bullets. A friend who kills around five pigs a year uses a .270 with 130 bullets. I should note that he shots pigs from a few yards out to over 200 yards in the Coast Range.

The only time I pull the Jungle Carbine out is when it is raining cats and dogs, and the cover precludes shots over one hundred yards.

W. Tell · « **Reply #10 on:** December 24, 2002, 06:30:22 AM »

I don't know how big hogs u got in your part of the world. And I don't know how u gonna hunt them, this is an important factor in choosing your gun. Running game in not for a singleshot or untuned boltgun! For stillhunting the action matters less, and I know most of American hunting is stillhunting-or similar. Here in Europe we have many driven shoots with beaters pushing game out of the woods....well as for caliber you should not realy need a .45-70. I would suggest an old marlin i .35rem for fast moving game, If a rifle is what u want! A pump/auto 20 or 12ga slug gun is faster and more effective on running game. And for other hunting get any gun bigger than .30 caliber with a modern bullet at 180gr or more! My personal choice is the 12ga pump for forest, and a 9,3X62 rifle for stillhunting....Don't worry about recoil, a well stocked gun is no brute in any of these calibers!

I can recomend a gunsmithing school in Colorado (Colorado school of Trades), I went there a decade ago!

Siskiyou · « **Reply #11 on:** December 24, 2002, 08:42:33 AM »

:wink: Tell
When I was writing about using a .270 I failed to say that I have one in a Remington 760 pump action. In fact one of my many old shooting books has an article about the 760 being used in Running Boar Competition in Europe. Not sure but may have been Germany.(Late 60's or early 70's) I might have to do some looking to find it. At one time I was big into combat shooting with a 12 gauge shotgun using rifle slugs. The shotgun was a Remington 870 with a Williams peep sight on the back. and a factory ramp front sight. I tossed the aperture. I then used the ghost ring. Very fast and effective.

Recoil from the 870 was no problem because I practiced. The nice thing about the 870 is the dual barrel options. I would not consider using the twenty guage. It is a good bird gun.

I believe the orginal question was regarding using the .303 vs. the 270 Win. Regarding that question I consider the Pump .270 far ahead of the .303. In a later post the author stated he already had a .270. Why go backwards. Even my short little .303 Jungle Carbine. My ideal choice would be the Remington 7600 pump in .35 Whelen. The .35 Whelen provides far greater options in the field. If a widow lady offered me a .35 Remington I would gladly take it, but I would have wished for a .35 Whelen.

Interesting little observation. As an old guy I hunt with a number of old guys. At this stage in their life's they own more then one rifle. I can count on them having a favorite. It may not be the new one, but the one which they have had many successful hunts. They fall back on old confortable and add to their success. Practice, practice, practice(safe) brings comfort and success. Hunting game in the thick requires a lot of practice. Practice dry firing and sight alignment with an empty firearm. It pays off. It does not matter what caliber you chose between a .270 or a .303. Dry fire, Dry Fire, and Dry Fire. :sniper:

Siskiyou

Rocky · « **Reply #12 on:** December 24, 2002, 10:16:18 AM »

AKA Craig,
By stronger, I take it you mean more potent/powerful? Either the .270 or .303 British will work quite nicely on hogs. The .45-70 is more of a short range cartridge.
The .303 British is a good cartridge, especially when loaded with good bullets. The factory cartridges are fine, but handloads really turn it into a different animal.
At your age, I would recommend you get an old surplus British Lee-Enfield in the best condition you can find - pay particular attention to the metal and stampings on the metal. Should run $150-$250 for one in excellent condition. A decent .270 will probably set you back at least twice that.
Really doesn't matter if you get a No. 1 Mk III or one of the No. although I would stay away from the No. 4 Mk I* with the simplified bolt-head release mechanism - I have one and don't like it, the bolt-head flips up sometimes when cycling the action rapidly. :!:
You can use it as is, or cut the barrel and forend back to make a rough sporter. Later, you can get a walnut stock set and slowly work it over into a really nice rifle. I built a No. 4 Mk I into a nice pseudo-Scout rifle and it is now one of the few rifles I wouldn't be without. :agree: Took it to Africa two years ago, and used it to take kudu, (two) gemsbok, zebra, springbok, blesbok, and hartebeest with absolutely no problem using 215 grain Claw Bonded-Core bullets. :agree: Five round magazines are available.

Rocky

W. Tell · « **Reply #13 on:** December 24, 2002, 12:01:28 PM »

the author never states what gun he has, other than caliber. I dont like .270 for boar unless the shot is on non running game. Boar can be very tough, and don't leave very good blood trail when shot with light guns of 6.5-7mm(.270).....heavy bullets is essential for good results, but magnum velocity is not unless range is far. The .35welen is super soo is the European 9.3X62 and these are very similar. A young shooter should not start hunting running game till he's becomed more exerienced!

And yes the pump actions were used for running game shooting matches, but they don't have the nessesary accuracy for todays competitors. But if the target was running a little faster they might come back again?!

W. Tell · « **Reply #14 on:** December 25, 2002, 05:40:19 AM »

Sure, that 7600 Remmy in .35 whelen is a very good choice! But, I don't like the triggers om semi'´s and pumps, I havent't shot one with a decent pull. But nontheless these guns slay mtn's of dear each year. So thats it! I'm havin' this crazy idea of building a set trigger for a 7600, would be nice for those long shots! and set triggers are obtainable for AR15's.

European hunters don't like reapeters as much as doubles, so you see alot of 9.3X74R double rifles for boar over here. With a set trigger there's no problem on long shots either! The superb handling of these guns make the kick very manageble.

Paperpunching is a drag! If it don't; fall over, spray blod, or explode on impact it's not worth the bullet! :-D

Siskiyou · « **Reply #15 on:** December 26, 2002, 06:53:04 PM »

Tell:

Mine is not bad. Had a trigger shoe installed in 1958. Timney also made a trigger for it at one time.

Siskiyou

Enforcer · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2003, 02:26:38 PM »

Just for the record as far as powerful.Here is a breakdown and keep this in mind the 303Brit carries a bullet diameter of .311-.312 verus the 270win .277.Big difference on big game.Larger diameter ie larger frontal area means spreads initial impact over larger area thereby distributing the energy more rapidly.Also means larger entry wound and exit wound,which facilitate quicker blood loss and a quicker kill or at the very least easier tracking!

270Win 150gr 2850fps-2705fpe, Factory, Momentum:61, KO:16
303Brit 150gr 2700fps-2400fpe, Factory, Mom:57, KO:18

270Win 160gr Nosler 2765fps-2715fpe, Hodgdon, Mom:63, KO:17
303Brit 150gr Speer 2755fps-2527fpe, Hodgdon, Mom:59, KO:18
303Brit 174gr SP 2600fps-2611fpe, Cabela's, Mom:64, KO:20
303Brit 180gr Sako 2540fps-2575fpe, VihtaVuori, Mom:65, KO:20
303Brit 215gr SP 2235fps-2384fpe, VihtaVuori, Mom:68, KO:21

On big game it has a real advantage over the 270win anyway you cut it.I consider it a superior round to the 270win on larger game and you will also!

When I look to a medium round in the 270Win range.I choice the Win M88 or Savage M99 in 284Win.It will throw a 160gr Sierra SPBT at a blazing 2885fps-2955fpe,and also out shines the 270Win.Enforcer

Siskiyou · « **Reply #17 on:** March 30, 2003, 04:59:31 PM »

Enforcer:

Clearly the Sportsman of America must agree with you. That is why .303 ammo is not ready available in sporting good stores. So many guys have the .303 that they just buy up all the ammo. My poor Jungle Carbine is abused and lonely because it is only used in the worse of weather where iron sights rule, and the range is short. And in the last 40 years has only had the oppertunity to take bucky a couple of times. Of course when the brush is thick, and it is not raining that darn 30-30 Marlin gets the call.

Those other cute little .270's keep getting the oppertunity because they have been successful year after year. Darn it is hard to argue with meat in the freezer. But old Alex up in the Peace River Country kept his family fed on moose meat using a the .303 Brit. Before that was an old 30-30 Win. but a plug of snow took care of the barrel. Then that darn 6.5 Swede came along and picked up some of the action.

When I am hunting bucks normally the .270 rules. It is hard to beat 46 years of success, with the taking of two or more bucks some years. When it comes to game larger then deer, the .303 Brit, nor the .270 is my choice but something a little larger. The .284 Win is a great round but only Winchester loads for it. I have a brother who has one. Always looking for .284 brass for it and his 6.5-284. In his case the .284 stays home and he takes the 6.5-284 or a .270. Finding .303 ammo is easier then finding .284 ammo.

By the way I bought a bunch of ammo loaded with 150 grain Sierra for the .303. One of these days I need to try them with the Crony. Bet they will not make 2300 fps. out of the 18 inch Jungle Carbine. Supposely they were remanufacture Canadian Mil brass with Sierra bullets for the Mounties. Sold under the S&B Brand.

What model .303 Brit do you use? What bullets do you recommend? What is your normal range for taking game? Are commercial .303 Brits common in your area. The are not common in the West. In fact I have check many hunters in the field over the years and encountered very few .303 Brits. When I do I always light up because I have one.

Time to put the old square point shovel away. Have a good day.

Enforcer · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2003, 09:45:00 AM »

I have 2 Brits.1 is a Enfield #4 Mark 1 Long Branch Sporter,with 22in Shilen barrel and monte carlo stock and 3x9x50 scope.The other is a Winchester M1895 with 28in barrel and side mounted Redfield 6x.

Range is anything out to 500yds.I like the 123gr Hornady at better than 3100fps for varmints.I like the 150gr Speer at about 2800fps for deer sized game.I like the 174gr or 180gr at 2600fps for large deer, black bear or elk.I like the 215gr Rem at about 2300fps for larger and or dangerous game.

I usally get a 100-150fps over any published loads with my Win M1895.Try handloading as i do.Because the ballistics you are giving for the 303 British are truly sad and do not reflect its ability by a 1/3.If you get less than 2300fps with a 150gr in a 303Brit,something is wrong.Check your chrono,check your rifle,check your ammo,check your glasses,Jesus check everything! With a 20in Brit i used to have I hovered just below 2600fps with a 150gr.

They are fairly common around here guns and ammo.But not the Winchester M1895s.I bought mine from Canada and paid $1500.00 American 2years ago.To go along with my 30/40 Krag and 405Win all with 28in barrels and all made in USA and levers to boot!

Good Day Enforcer

Siskiyou · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2003, 03:33:15 PM »

Years ago I loaded up a bunch of .303 Brit using IMR 4320 and 174 grain Hornaday bullets. Performance was very good. Now that I have a Chrony I need to check it against other loads.

Enforcer · « **Reply #20 on:** April 01, 2003, 04:28:44 PM »

Quote from: Siskiyou

Years ago I loaded up a bunch of .303 Brit using IMR 4320 and 174 grain Hornaday bullets. Performance was very good. Now that I have a Chrony I need to check it against other loads.

Here lies some of your problem.I have not found the IMR 4320 to be a good powder to use in the British.Try RI-15 or N140 they are the best and give blistering velocities,but IMR 4064 or IMR 3031 will also work better than what you've been using!

42.0grs of N140 with 174gr bullet will get you 2600fps out of 24in barrel
46.5grs of RI-15 with 150gr bullet will get you 2800fps with 24in barrel

Another problem is you have demoted the British to crap duty(rainy days,short range,open sights).You've also saddled yourself with to short of a barrel in a 18.5in.The British needs 22 inches or more to shine!

You start out with a nice British and you will see it will go step for step with 30/40 Krag,300 Savage,307Win,308Win and such.

The 30/30 and the 303 British should not be mentioned in the same sentence.The 303 British is so superior to the 30/30 it ain't even funny.It will send a 215gr bullet as fast as the 30/30 will a 170gr and a 180gr bullet faster than the 30/30 can send a 150gr.Plus with larger diameter and with spitzer bullets.

Enforcer

Siskiyou · « **Reply #21 on:** April 02, 2003, 05:07:31 PM »

Enforcer:
As I said the results with the 4320 and the Hornaday 174 grain bullet was good. Why change something that is working. If I want a magnum, I will use a magnum built on a stronger action.

I think I am using the .303 Jungle Carbine in the hunting sense for what it was designed for. It was designed to work in close, wet enviroments(Jungle), and with iron sights. On those nasty stormy days when the deer are moving around in the fog, rain, and snow shots are normally close, and a scope is a disadvantage. The short barrel is an advantage when crawling throught thick brush. The peep sight is fast. I have taken a number of deer at less then 50 yards. The closest at about 15 yards. I would rather be in the field in the nasty weather, then home watching tv.

Rather then pull a scope off another rifle, I have a rifle that fits my needs in the Jungle Carbine. It will work up close and it will work out to around 150 yards. Must admit that Brit recoil pad is a bad joke, if the rifle produced more recoil it would be a killer on both ends. I use a slip on pad rather then fit one to the rifle. I want to maintain the rifle in a semblance of it's military orgin.

Back in the 50's the guy who lived across the street had the only "custom" British .303 around. It had a nice stock with a cheek piece, a scope, and a custom barrel. It was a good shooter. Then he fell in love and bought a new Winchester(pre-64) .308 Feather Wieght. The laws regarding the sale of firearms were different then. The little cowtown I was raised in had one bar. When somebody wanted to sell a rifle in was hung in the bar with a price tag on it. The price kept dropping on the .303 but knowbody bougth it. It was known to be a good shooter but that made no difference. One day the rifle disappeared, and I asked him how much he got for it. He replied that after two years he knew he was not going to sell it and he took it home.

A couple of questions on your .303. Do they have the extended military chamber. I see this as an advantage in a military rifle but as a disadvantage in a sporting rifle if one reloads. I neck resized my loads so that I am not always pushing the shoulder back. Being it is the only .303 Brit I have I see no sense in over working the brass.

What kind of case life do you get. Does in very much between your rifles?

Siskiyou

Enforcer · « **Reply #22 on:** April 02, 2003, 07:24:56 PM »

Case life is great.It depends more on the loads in the case,than the rifle its shot out of.

I've built a couple 303 Custom Brits and sold them easily in the $900.00-$1200.00 range.So i don't know anything about not being able to sell a British,and certainly don't know anything about the 50's.I wasn't born until the 70's.

As far as extended military chambering.Neither one of my guns is affected by such a curse,but have had some.Not good for the reloader.

We have two different opinions on the Brit.You believe and it is true.Its good for short ranges,jungle like conditions,with short barrel and unscoped.Those are not the type of rifles I'm interested in.If i buy a military 303 British.I rebarrel it,restock it,reblue it,glass bead it,scope it and then see where were at.

I really prefer my Winchester M1895 lever in 303Brit.As I'm truely a lever man anyway.Enforcer

Siskiyou · « **Reply #23 on:** April 03, 2003, 09:43:39 AM »

That is the nice thing about building a custom rifle in the caliber you want, and with the stock and finsh that meets your needs. It does not have to meet anybody elses needs.

Siskiyou