Author Topic: 12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga  (Read 983 times)

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Offline HuntenNut

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« on: August 30, 2004, 08:00:50 AM »
I have been considering picking up the Topper Deluxe Classice when it comes available. Mostly it will be used on rabbits in front of my beagles, but I am curious about the 3.5" capability for Turkey. I also have the Ultra Slug 12ga which could be fitted with the 10ga turkey barrel. What is the best way to go?

I think most of the 3.5" guns on the market are overbored, so I wonder how the 3.5" shells would pattern in the TDC. I am assuming it is going to be similar to the other 12ga guns offered in 3.5 by H&R.

So what kind of patterns are you getting in these and what is the effective range?

Also interested in hearing from anyone with 10ga on its performance.

Please no debates that 20ga are regular 12ga is plenty for turkey. I am strictly looking to compare the 12ga 3.5 to the 10ga offerings from H&R

I reallize the 10ga is heavier, which I consider a disadvantage for a "run n gun" type rig, however, the 10ga is drilled and tapped for scope. Not a huge feature in a turkey gun, but may be to some. I happen to have an extra shotgun scope already, so if I got the 10ga, I'd probably slap it on.

Offline scruffy

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2004, 09:32:16 AM »
One thing to consider about the 10 gauges scope mount is that the factory drilled holes are forward of the chamber, making it somewhat of a forward "scout scope mount" position.  Depending on the shotgun scopes eye relief it may or may not work.

The range of the 12 and 10 gauges depends on the combination of load, choke, gun, target, and the shooters confidense in the pattern.  It's pretty much subjective since there's isn't a standardized target and peoples cut off, 3 pellet in the brain or spine, 6 pellets in the brain or spine, or 10 pellets in the head and neck, etc etc etc.  It seems every turkey hunter has a different target and pellet cutoff.  One guy might consider a gun to be good to 40 yards another might consider it 55 yards.

I wish someone would come out with a standard target and standard pellet cutoff, that weather you agreed with it or not, had something to compare turkey guns with.

Also, just like any other brand, take remington for instance, one 870 could have a range of 45 yards max no matter what choke, load, etc, while another 870 is good to 50+ yards easy with almost any load and a few different chokes.

So I'd get the shotgun, 12 or 10, that fits your needs best and then worry about the pattern when you go to the range with a bag full of different loads and a few different chokes to try.  Then find a couple that pattern good and determine it's max range depending on how comfortible you are with the patterns shot at different distances.

Also, and this is not 3" mag verses 3.5" mag talk, try some 3" mag loads in your shotgun along with the 3.5".  Alot of shotguns pattern 3" mag loads better than the 3.5".  More shot payload does not mean denser patterns, alot of times it mean more dispersal (bigger patterns) or worse, holes, unevenness with dense and sparse spots, etc.  You want to find that "sweet spot" where you get as much payload down the barrel into the densest most even pattern you can.  That may be a 3.5" mag load with one choke/barrel combination, or a 3" load in another choke/barrel combination.

I personally believe that finding the "best load for any 12 gauge 3.5" shotgun is never ending.  With the number of loads, both 3" and 3.5", diversity of chokes, pellet materials, etc I don't think you could ever try every possible combination.  The 10 gauge, depending on the area, is much more limited to extremely limited in variaty of ammo and chokes.

Good luck with your choice.  This past year was my first year turkey hunting with a NEF 12 gauge (used to use a Remington 870 super mag in the past) and loved the little NEF's light weight, easy carry qualities.  You'll enjoy hunting turkeys with either the 10 or 12, so you can't go wrong.

later,
scruffy
Hunting is 99% brain, 1% gun

Offline HuntenNut

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2004, 12:09:37 PM »
The scope I have has 5.5 inches of eye relief, so I think I can make it work. Won't break my heart if it doesnt. I don't really see that a scope is that great of a benefit on a turkey gun like it is for a deer gun (I mostly like a scope on a deer gun for its low light capabilities). I just happen to have it laying around as I upgraded the optics on my Ultra Slug 12ga.

I realize that all guns are different, prefer different loads, etc., but what I would like to know is "in generall" how do the 3.5's and 10ga's pattern or perform in the H&R guns. Maybe some specific examples from people who have them and have some specific information on their gun and loads performance.

I would think one reason for the 3.5 to perform poorly in the H&R would be due to the bore diameter. I believe many of the repeaters offered in 3.5 have a larger bore than a standard 12ga and hence allowing the shot to disperse evenly through the choke without deforming the pellets.

Offline Markus

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2004, 03:44:02 PM »
I never did shoot it for a pattern but I shot a box of hevi-shot 3 1/2" no 2 out of my topper deluxe year befor last on canada and snow geese. 30-50 yd shots through a mod choke and it performed great. I think I killed nine birds with 10 shells. I also killed my shoulder. One shot was a late shot at a goose coming in from my extreme left and I had the butt around on my right bicep. That was a nasty bruise. Honestly I never noticethe recoil till I'm done hunting. I'm a pretty big guy though.
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Offline Sourdough

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2004, 06:39:22 PM »
My experience:   3 1/2" 12ga shells have more recoil than 10ga.  Maybe it's because the 10ga is heavier, but it does not kick as bad.
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Offline hellacatcher

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2004, 12:54:28 AM »
I am not to sure the topper deluxe classic comes in a 3 1/2 in. I belive only 3 in. the topper deluxe does come in 3 1/3  :?
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Offline MTNMAN

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2004, 01:28:32 AM »
HnN,
You May want to take some time and do a SEARCH and see what Perklo as well as WNY Whitetailer have to say on some of their old posts as to the 3.5" 12gauge and the 10 gauge for turkey... Can tell you that an after market choke in the 12 will make a big differenceas opposed to the one provided by NEF as far as pattern and shot down range... MTNMAN
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Offline MTNMAN

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2004, 01:32:07 AM »
Hellcatcher,

Right from the NEF site....The TopperĀ® Deluxe Classic is available in 12 gauge with a 3-1/2" chamber and a screw-in choke that can handle both lead and steel shot....MTNMAN :wink:
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Offline HuntenNut

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2004, 02:08:11 AM »
Hellcatcher,

The catalog states 3", but the website states 3.5". Someone recently posted here that they got one and they stated that it was a 3.5" chamber. I am assuming that the catalog is an error. Also, I bet they use the same barrel as the Topper Deluxe and just add the rib.

Anyway, I'll be sure to verify that it is before I purchase, although I won't not get one if its not a 3.5"

Offline scruffy

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2004, 04:56:48 AM »
Quote from: HuntenNut
The scope I have has 5.5 inches of eye relief, so I think I can make it work. Won't break my heart if it doesnt. I don't really see that a scope is that great of a benefit on a turkey gun like it is for a deer gun (I mostly like a scope on a deer gun for its low light capabilities).
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I would think one reason for the 3.5 to perform poorly in the H&R would be due to the bore diameter. I believe many of the repeaters offered in 3.5 have a larger bore than a standard 12ga and hence allowing the shot to disperse evenly through the choke without deforming the pellets./quote]

The scope mount for the 10 gauge has 4 screws, two in back, two in front.  The back two screws are approx 6" infront of the breech, the front pair of screws are approx mid barrel, or 12" infront of the breech.   You can see the screw tops in this pic by looking closesly - http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/large/PardT10G.jpg .  So a 5.5" eye relief would put your eye .5" infront of the breech.  The scope mount is waaaaaaaaaaay forward on the 10 gauge.  

Once you get your turkey gun really tightened up pattern wise you find out a couple of things.  One, you're pattern at short ranges like 0-15 yards is the size of your fist or smaller.  Unless you know how to bend your barrel to make POI be the POA of the beed you'll have to know exactly how much off your shot is going and use "kentucky windage" to compensate.  And two, a turkey is pretty far out there at 50 yards.  Hitting the bird at 50 yards isn't near as hard as centering the pattern over his head and neck so you get the needed number of pellets to kill the tom and not just wound him.

I have a rem 870 super mag that I have loads/choke combinations that look on paper like they'd kill a turkey to 55 or longer yards.  But up close that shotgun has missed more times.......  It's fires a shotgun slug pattern up close that's not where the bead is and if you can't center the pattern at 10 yards you certainly won't at 40 or 55 or beyond.  So it's a scope only shotgun when it's all choked up to pattern really tight.

On the over bored barrel, my nef pardner is overbored bigger than my remington 870, so that's not an issue realy.  Most deformation from constriction occurs from the forcing cone.  Turkey loads are buffered and copper plated to negate constriction deformation by the bore.  On the forcing cone you want a 3/4" or so cone (my nef came with a 3/4" cone from the factory) and you want to polish it.  If it's shorter than 3/4" you're slamming the shot load pretty abruptly.  If it's longer, well, most people say you pattern opens up.  On the polishing, a rough cone will tear and gouge the shot.  A polished cone won't.

My pardner has the roughest cone I've ever seen.  Instead of polishing I run hevishot through it (this an multiple other reasons).  The Remington hevishot has a teflon coated wad that minimizies pellet to barrel contact.  And the pellets that do contact are so hard the rough cone doesn't do any damage.  And if it did scratch it, hevishot is so ragged and jagged and rough you'd never know the difference.  It's odd stuff, but shoots awesome.  It's much more forgiving than lead when it comes to barrel shotcomings.  My forcing cone has to be really hard on lead shot, but not the hevi.

Hope this helps.

later,
scruffy
Hunting is 99% brain, 1% gun

Offline HuntenNut

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2004, 05:58:58 AM »
As to the scope, I still can't see it being necessary. I hit rabbits all day and they are running and zig zagging. Granted its with a modified choke Pardner, but I can't see that it would be  that hard to hit a turkey with a bead sight seeing how slow they walk.

I might just stick to my double 12ga BP muzzleloader with which I have the option of one barrel open choked for close shots and the other choked for longer range.

Offline scruffy

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2004, 07:08:29 AM »
Quote from: HuntenNut
As to the scope, I still can't see it being necessary. I hit rabbits all day and they are running and zig zagging. Granted its with a modified choke Pardner, but I can't see that it would be  that hard to hit a turkey with a bead sight seeing how slow they walk.


 :)  Oh, you'll see soon enough how hard it is to shoot their little head at close range when you have a shotgun tuned for long range.  :wink:

later,
scruffy
Hunting is 99% brain, 1% gun

Offline gwhilikerz

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12ga 3.5" Vs 10ga
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2004, 01:09:31 PM »
One of my hunting buddies and Myself use 2 3/4" #6 for turkey, squirrel, rabbit, quail, etc. neither of us has missed or lost a turkey YET.