Author Topic: Masking tape paper-patched bullets? (Read 3950 times)

TexasMac · « **on:** August 18, 2004, 04:27:26 PM »

I'm about to try some paper-patched bullets in an original Springfield Trapdoor Carbine for deer hunting. I want the advantage of using pure lead for maximum expansion. May use black powder, but have not decided yet. In any case, I was informed many moons ago, by a guy that has shot a lot of PP bullets, that standard masking tape does a great job when used as the paper patch material. And the glue insures it sticks to the bullet. Have any of you guys tried this?

Wayne

fffffg · « **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2004, 07:30:06 PM »

if you let masking tape set it will harden like a rock and could caouse bullet drag and poor flight.. order onion skin from buffalo arms and get some of thier liquid for the patch or use spit, or spg lube can work to stick it down too.. im not haveing great accuracy luck with pp yet but not having trouble getting it to stay on when in the case and getting thru the gun ok, ... good luck dave...

JBMauser · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2004, 04:56:03 PM »

I used freezer tape and got promising results. This tape is paper as you can write on it with a pen. I do not know what the masking tape is. I had read about this I did not invent it myself. I do not recall the source, It could have been Veral himself. I may have to queery him on this board to see. It was hard to find (my wife had no problem) two wraps did the trick. Let us know how you fair. JB

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2004, 11:06:18 AM »

I was under the understanding that you want the paper to not stay with the bullet. The paper affects the flight of the bullet and accuracy is lost. It is not hard to use onion skin or paper patch material. I would not even consider using masking tape. JMHO

HWooldridge · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2004, 04:52:20 PM »

Everything I have read plus my own personal experience says that the paper should come off the bullet soon after leaving the barrel. The problem is that the tape would likely never be consistent and any slight rise in the leading edge would cause drag and/or flyers. Either that or a piece or two would stick and the rest fall off with the same result. Some of the target shooters in the 19th century employed a method that used two long strips laid in a cross over a false muzzle. The slug was then muzzle loaded to seat against a brass case loaded with powder. The false muzzle was removed and the shot made with the paper strips falling away as the bullet left the barrel.

JBMauser · « **Reply #5 on:** August 21, 2004, 02:01:51 PM »

the paper patch must come free a few feet from the muzzle or ride the whole way. As long as it stays attached it is not a problem. As long as the paper has a good grip on the pill enough to overcome the centrifical force to fling it off the spinning pill, the air turbulance should not peal it away. give it a try. I was not sure of the freezer tape but I recall Veral had wrote about success using peel and stick computer printer labels. lots of material will work. Teflon plumbers tape if you want 2800 fps! A huge factor that is rifle dependent is if the rifling will cut the paper or not. This factor has more to do with deciding the type of paper or use of a tape than convention. JB

zrifleman · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2004, 07:02:55 PM »

A properly made PP bullet that fits the bore correctly is hard to beat for accuracy and dependability. 19th century slug gun shooters and buffalo hunters would roll over in their grave at the prospect of using masking tape. Patching paper is usually 100% rag paper .002"-.003". Bullets are patched from .001" under groove diameter down to .001" over bore diameter. Patches are cut in strips by the rifling and come off right in front of the muzzle. If you patch the bullet oversize as some are recommending you run the risk of stripping the patch off at the throat and leading the barrel--and oversize does not give better accuracy. If you want to play with different diameters try running a patched bullet thru a lubrisizer. My credentials??? 25 yrs of making and shooting PP-- 10 Sharps rifles and 2 ML slug guns.

45 2.1 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 24, 2004, 02:07:11 AM »

Quote from: zrifleman

If you patch the bullet oversize as some are recommending you run the risk of stripping the patch off at the throat and leading the barrel--and oversize does not give better accuracy. If you want to play with different diameters try running a patched bullet thru a lubrisizer. My credentials??? 25 yrs of making and shooting PP-- 10 Sharps rifles and 2 ML slug guns.

There is a great big difference between patching for blackpowder loads and patching for smokeless. Two different approaches. Try it and find out! I also have the same years, but have patched for both and in alot more rifles and handguns.

zrifleman · « **Reply #8 on:** August 24, 2004, 02:39:48 PM »

45 2.1 What's your point?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 24, 2004, 03:16:09 PM »

Quote from: zrifleman

45 2.1 What's your point?

My thoughts also. :?

45 2.1 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2004, 01:52:34 AM »

Gentlemen-
The point is that there are two distinct camps involved in paper patching. The blackpowder camp mostly uses bore size patched bullets due to the problems with blackpowder fouling when using straight black. This can be tempered by duplexing, but isn't allowed in most shoots. An oversize patched bullet in these cases would do as zrifleman states. The other camp is the smokeless shooters. They get as good or better accuracy by using groove or throat size patched bullets. What works for one usually doesn't work for the other. That is the point! If you tried both extensively, you would find that out. Qualify your observations for the uninformed people asking questions. They will get better results and stay in the sport if you do.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 25, 2004, 02:38:30 AM »

TexasMac, I suggest and highly recommend you get Paul Matthews book the paper jacket. It has a lot of information on both black powder and smokeless paper patch bullets and loading. :grin: Also please let us know how you do. :grin:

45 2.1., TexasMac was talking about using black powder. I see no reference to smokeless powder except yours. So I think we gave good information.

45 2.1 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 25, 2004, 02:51:53 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1

45 2.1., TexasMac was talking about using black powder. I see no reference to smokeless powder except yours. So I think we gave good information.

TexasMac said "May use black powder, but have not decided yet." I think he left it open and wasn't decided, as he said.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 25, 2004, 08:16:14 AM »

Quote from: 45 2.1

Quote from: Redhawk1
45 2.1., TexasMac was talking about using black powder. I see no reference to smokeless powder except yours. So I think we gave good information.

TexasMac said "May use black powder, but have not decided yet." I think he left it open and wasn't decided, as he said.

But the question was really about using standard masking tape for paper patch bullets. Me personally, I would not use it. :wink:

zrifleman · « **Reply #14 on:** August 25, 2004, 03:33:40 PM »

45 2.1 you are being condecending--I did qualify myself-Iwould not recommend masking tape to PP bullets. Whether you shoot smokless or BP (I shoot both) patching somewhere between bore diameter and groove diameter will give best results. If BP will upset a bullet into the rifling so will smokeless powder. For those just starting to use PP---the leade at the end of the chamber should be gradual not abrupt, bullets should be seated to the rifling or into it a few thousands. With BP a grease cookie under the bullet helps soften fouling and allow repeated shots without cleaning. It's important to put a card over the powder when using a grease cookie to protect the powder. The Paul Mattews book is very helpful.

45 2.1 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 26, 2004, 01:59:39 AM »

Quote from: zrifleman

45 2.1 you are being condecending--I did qualify myself-Iwould not recommend masking tape to PP bullets. Whether you shoot smokless or BP (I shoot both) patching somewhere between bore diameter and groove diameter will give best results. If BP will upset a bullet into the rifling so will smokeless powder. For those just starting to use PP---the leade at the end of the chamber should be gradual not abrupt, bullets should be seated to the rifling or into it a few thousands. With BP a grease cookie under the bullet helps soften fouling and allow repeated shots without cleaning. It's important to put a card over the powder when using a grease cookie to protect the powder. The Paul Mattews book is very helpful.

Personal attacks aren't allowed on this board. You have stepped over that line! As to your statements about patched size, just what size groups do you claim as best results?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2004, 02:20:22 AM »

zrifleman, I think your post hit the nail on the head about the patching somewhere between bore diameter and groove diameter will give best results. Another good book is Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West By Mike Venturino. Here is the web address for Buffalo Arms, who sells the books. http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,31.html.

Lets stick to the subject.

TexasMac · « **Reply #17 on:** August 26, 2004, 06:14:37 AM »

Just to clarify for all, I am experienced (at least I like to thing so) in casting BPCR bullets and shooting cast bullets in both black powder and smokeless in BPCRs. I fully understand the bullet dimensional requirements for both, knowing full well that BP does a better job of obturating bullets and that bullets used with BP needs a little more room for fouling. I do have and have read (cover-to-cover) Paul Mathews The Paper Jacket, and also other relevant literature, so I am well read on the subject. But I am not an experienced reloader and shooter of paper patch bullets. I do understand that to obtain max accuracy the patching material must either separate immediately after exiting the muzzle or stay on for the duration. Either approach will work, but if the latter is chosen the material must stay on till the bullet hits the target.

My question was simply on the use of masking tape as a paper patch substitute. I was hoping to find someone who had tried it and could provide some feedback. I will definitely give it a try and see what happens.

As noted earlier, my interest in paper patching is solely to allow the use of pure or almost pure lead for max bullet expansion for hunting whitetails, therefore the need for paper patching. In this case I am not necessarily interested in the time-honored classic approach to paper patching but the easiest method, without sacrificing accuracy. I will be using a wad between the powder and bullet. I seriously doubt IÂ’ll be firing more than 2 bullets at a deer (99.9% of the time itÂ’s only one). If I use black powder I do not intend to complicate the reloading process by using a grease cookie between the bullet and powder. Under these circumstances keeping the powder moist is not a concern. I do appreciate all of your comments and suggestions.

Regards,
Wayne

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 26, 2004, 07:41:13 AM »

TexasMac, sounds like you got it all down. I did not realize you reloaded and were familiar with load. :oops: What did you think about Paul Matthews book? Also let up know what you find in your testing.
:-)

zrifleman · « **Reply #19 on:** August 26, 2004, 12:00:22 PM »

45 2.1-different guns on different days-different results. 5 hits in a row on a 40" diameter clanger at 1000 yds in a cross stick match with 45-70/blackpowder/500 gr PP w/iron sights. 5 hits in a row 750 yds on a 36" clanger-same gun, same load. 9 shots in 1.835" center to center at 200 yds w/Farmingdale Shiloh Sharps, 45/70/blackpowder/530 gr PP from a rest. 1" five shot groups at 100 yds with smokless powder and 500 gr PP bullets. "Back to the subject" Scheuzten shooters, slug gun shooters, ASSRA single shot matches all employ the same theory bullet paper patched to between bore and groove. Naked lead bullets are shot a little oversized to seal the bore and stop leading--something PP bullets are not prone to do with good paper and lube. Some of the paper I am using now is not as tough and tears easily. I want to try some of the paper Buffalo Arms is offering. Compression dies and over powder wads have made BP loading much easier.

45 2.1 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 27, 2004, 02:03:49 AM »

zrifleman-
Thats pretty good shooting with black at long range, less than 4 MOA. Excellant shooting at 200 yds, Less than MOA. 100 yard smokeless is ok to, but not what I've seen done. Anything that has been written up with blackpowder can be done with smokeless also, if you put the time into learning how to do it like you have done with black. Technology and accuracy progress by individual accomplishment over time, not by using what everybody else does. It must be nice to use a 1000 yard range, I wish one was available. Where I live, the maximum range I can use only goes to 700 yards.

JBMauser · « **Reply #21 on:** September 01, 2004, 02:19:37 PM »

TexasMac, I pulled out my data on one test with paper freezer tape. I patched up a lee 185gr round nose with GC .314 and shot it with a load of 13.4 gr. of Unique at 50 yards. group of 4 shots inside a 1 3/4in circle. These were cast of lead with no crimp and coated with lee liquid alox. Fired in a 24/47 Mauser with sights set at 500m. A second target shows multiple shots nearly touching or touching but spread, the clusters were spread over two inches apart. These groups are ok for me as my eyes and the lousy Mauser mill sights stink and oh yes, this is a millitary arm with full stock and bands. This is NOT a target barrel and with a bedded action. As I said I did not try masking tape because it is not normal paper.
I was getting improved results from this effort and only abandoned it because other guns, loads and bullets called. Best of luck. JB