Bullet nose in tubular magazines

[unspellable]

I have a Winchester M1894 in 32 Special that came to me from my dad.   We were always warned against the use of a pointed bullet for fear of setting off the cartridge in front of it.  Back then we bought Winchester factory loads with a flat nosed Silver Tip.   So far so good.

A few weeks ago I picked up a Winchester M1894 in 30-30.  When I bought a couple of boxes of Winchester 30-30's for it, I found they were loaded with round nosed soft points.  What gives?

[Big Tom]

They will cycle through the rifle, however, a round nosed bullet is capable of "bumping' a primer of another cartridge in the tubular magaxine, possibly igniting the magazine :eek:

I have always heard the rule was when using round nose bullets....load it like a double barrel. :lol:

[leverfan]

In a tubular magazine, I prefer bullets with flat meplats larger in diameter than the primer pocket.  However, many people safely shoot round nose bullets in tube fed rifles, and setting off the other rounds in the magazine is almost unheard of.  A few years ago, I read an article in which the author experimented with different bullet types, whacking them with hammers and driving them point first into primed cases.  He had a very hard time getting primers to pop without using a FMJ spitzer.  

On the other hand, Elmer Keith published details from a letter that he received from a fellow that had his hand blown to pieces by a recoil-induced detonation of the primers in his tube magazine.  Big Tom has mentioned the safest approach, although you are almost certainly safe using those round nosed bullets.  

My dad has hunted with the 30-30 for his whole life, and he pays absolutely no attention to bullet shape, or even brand.  He buys the cheapest 170 grain bullet loads he can find, and then he does very well with them.  It's hard to argue with success.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive seen probably thousands of round nose corelocks shot through 3030s and have never seen a problem. I have to doubt in these days of lawsuits that remington would load them if they were dangerous

[oso45-70]

unspellable,
I don't think we have to worry as much as we did in years past. All the primers we get today are thicker than they used to be, When i started loading in 1948 the primers were soft enough that you could make a dent in them real easy. If you are in doubt about the use of regular primers you can get some CCI NO.34 primers thats made for automatic rifles like the 7.62x39 which prevents  SLAM FIRE in those rifles. But i don't think you have to worry about the soft round nosed bullets with todays primers.
Good luck and stay safe.........Joe.........

[unspellable]

I doubt that I will be hand loading this particular caliber.  The factory loads are fairly cheap and I won't be shooting it all that much.

[Robert357]

I use handloaded round pointed bullets in my Marlin 336 30-30 with no problem.  

I would like to digress a bit into a related topic.

A lever action rifle with a tublar magazine will have significantly different accuracy depending upon how many bullets are in the tubular magazine.

That is if you fully load your tubular magazine put the rifle on sandbags, take a shot, cycle another round from the tube magazine, take a shot, etc.; your group size will be much different than if you started with a lever action with just one round in the chamber and none in the magazine and just loaded one round in the chamber prior to each shot.

The weight of the loaded rounds in the magazine and the compressed spring tension in the magazine tube that is clamped to the barrel will change barrel vibration characteristics.  As you change these by firing rounds out of the tubular magazine, you will have a constantly changing set of weights you have hung from your barrel and that will open up groups on a target.

The point of the digression is that in most real-life hunting situations you want at most one round in the chamber and one in the magazine.  In such a situation you have little need to worry about the bullet shape at all.

(And yes, for plinking, and informal target shooting, I have loaded the magazine full and just shot away with fair results, but lots of enjoyment.   Hunting is another matter and serious business. )

[Lawdog]

unspellable,

I have seen the results of one cartridge(.30-30, etc.) setting off another in a tubular magazine from police reports.  Sure the odds may be in your favor but what if they are not?   :eek:   Anyone care to bet their limbs/life?  I don’t like to buck the odds, my luck isn’t that great.  Lawdog
 

[cam69conv]

unspellable,
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with lawdog on that one...Granted the odds are probably 1 in a million against it happening...But what if you are number one million??? I personally like my hands where they are located granted arthritis hurts like hell but I still likeum on tha end of ma arms.. I dont like the flatnose much maself but I try to be as safe as possible...Good luck

[w30wcf]

There is an IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE (!) between the shorter pistol cartridges and a .30-30 rifle cartridge. If you lay a .30-30 and .32 -.45 caliber pistol rounds on a table end to end, note the difference on where the nose of the bullet contacts the round in front of it.

Since it is longer, is a bottle necked cartridge and a smaller caliber, the nose of the .30-30 will rest more on the the rim of the forward cartridge.
Lay 2 .30-30 rounds on a table and see where the bullet nose rests against the base of the cartridge in front of it.

The .32-.45 caliber pistol rounds being shorter and bigger in diameter compared to their length, will line up more against the primer which is not a good situation with round nosed bullets.

As an example of this, back in the late 60's or early 70's Ruger came out with a tube fed semi automatic carbine chambered in .44 magnum. After at least one fellow blew out the magazine when using full patch round nosed bullets, Ruger issued a stern warning not to use round nosed fmj bullets in that rifle.

With regards to the .30-30, it has been factory loaded with round nosed and flat point bullets since 1895, some of them even being full metal patched! Because the bullet nose rests more against the rear of the case head and not on the primer, there have never been any problems. If there were, the ammunition manufacturers would have stopped loading them long ago.

If you load several .30-30 cartridges into a '94 Winchester where you can observe them coming into the carrier from the magazine, here's what you should see:
    1st cartridge out - nose against the left side / 2nd cartridge out - nose against the right side / 3rd cartridge out - nose against the left side / last cartridge out - nose against the right side.

I did this twice with the same result. In thinking this through, here's what happens in loading:

The first cartridge in rests with it's nose against the left side of the magazine since it is angled that way. When the second cartridge goes in, pressure against the left side of the base of the first cartridge causes the first cartridge's nose to move position to the right side of the magazine.

 When number three goes in, it's nose rests against the base of cartridge number two, but number two can't change position since it's nose is locked into the left side of the base of number one cartridge because of the "uphill" angle of number one's base.
 
When cartridge number four goes in, the pressure against the left side of the base of number three cartridge causes the nose of number three cartridge to slide over the base of number two cartridge which is "downhill" to the right, thus locking the nose of number three cartridge to the right and the nose of number four cartridge to the left.

By comparison, pistol cartridges come into the carrier with the bullet nose resting directly on the center of the round in front of it.

As one can see, there is a definite difference between rifle cartridges and pistol cartridges in a tubular magazine.

Stay safe.
w30wcf

[Lawdog]

w30wcf,

There is an IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE (!) between the shorter pistol cartridges and a .30-30 rifle cartridge. If you lay a .30-30 and .32 -.45 caliber pistol rounds on a table end to end, note the difference on where the nose of the bullet contacts the round in front of it.

Since it is longer, is a bottle necked cartridge and a smaller caliber, the nose of the .30-30 will rest more on the the rim of the forward cartridge.
Lay 2 .30-30 rounds on a table and see where the bullet nose rests against the base of the cartridge in front of it.

Nice theory, except for the fact that the spring compresses the cartridges.  The spring has enough force to align the cartridges in the tube causing the bullets to be like they are stacked on top of each other.  They do not lay like they would on a table top.  I have seen the test where they took a clear plastic tube, the same diameter as the cartridge tube on a rifle, replaced the tubular magazine on the rifle.  Loaded it the same way as one would a rifle and the spring caused the cartridges to align bullet on top of primer.  The spring is what causes the bullet of the following cartridge to sit on top of the one before it.  Way too many tubular magazine rifles(both Winchester and Marlin) have had cartridges(.30-30, .32 Win. Sp., etc. all of which were loaded with bullets other than flat nose) detonate in their magazines for your theory to be valid.  For years people have wondered why the ammo companies have loaded round nose bullets in rimmed cartridges used mostly in tubular magazine rifles.  The only reason I can come with is these cartridges were also chambered in single shots, bolt actions and lever actions with rotary or box magazines.  Also the old soft lead tips on the older round nose cartridges were very soft thus the tip would flatten before detonation would happen.  A person takes enough chances just getting up every morning, no since in pushing it.  Lawdog
 

[cam69conv]

Tankya der Lawdog...Dont have ta say nothin else...The only thing I will load a round nose in a tube fed would be the 22 simply because the recoil is NOT enough to fire the rim primer not even CLOSE or I wouldnt even do it in that cal either...Safe is always better than sorry

[WD45]

most people do tend to forget how many different guns were chambered in 30-30 other than lever guns. Kind of one of those out of site out of mind things :grin:

[w30wcf]

Lawdog,

Thank you for your input.  I had not heard of the clear plastic magazine tube idea before. Interesting!

After reading your post, I repeated my earlier test an pulled out one of my .30-30 Winchesters from the gun safe and loaded 4 cartridges in the magazine.  As each one came into the carrier, I again noted that the nose of the bullet was not on the primer, but on the side of the head of the forward cartridge.

I then coated the nose of the bullets with Prussian Blue which would leave a telltale impression of the bullet nose location on the forward cartridge. Result: All the blue transferred to the case heads and none was on any of the primers.

Because the .30-30 cartridges are inserted at an angle the magazine spring holds them in tension that way according to the test results.
Pistol cartridges being shorter and fatter will straighten up and go nose to tail.

In conclusion, if round nosed bullets were unsafe in the magazine of .30-30 lever action rifles, in these days of law suits, corporate attorneys would stop the manufacture of this ammuniiton.  Round nosed full metal patched .30-30 cartridges were available as factory fodder up until the early 1960's and were discontinued only due to lack of sales.

The only instances I have known regarding mag tube blow ups have been with pistol cartridges only.  If anyone has a documented  instance of this happening in a .30-30 rifle, please pass it along to us.

Sincerely,
w30wcf

[John Y Cannuck]

Yes, by all means. Various people have claimed there is documented evidence, but nowhere have I seen it produced.
The tests conducted for Gun Digest clearly show that such a "detonation" would result in minimal, or no damage to the rifle, or shooter, and that the problem is very difficult, or impossible to produce without a concerted and knowing effort by the shooter to do so.