Author Topic: Ignition systems for mortars and cannon (Read 2582 times)

Cat Whisperer · « **on:** February 13, 2004, 04:05:50 PM »

Hermit -
THANK you so much. The two posts you put up included an unusual but commonly available method of ignition.

As an alternative to fuse or percussion, the use of the piezo-electric igniter (as found in lighters and gas grills) is a way of igniting blackpowder that can be entirely home built (for the parts expended on each shot).

Experiments and pictures follow.

Blackpowder is used in current separate-loading cannons (like our 155mm howizters and larger). At the base of the silk bag is a thin layer of blackpowder to 'catch' the sparks from the primer. So it follows (to me) that using a spark generating device would ignite a blackpowder-loaded mortar.

Anyone tried it?

Hermit · « **Reply #1 on:** February 14, 2004, 11:16:51 AM »

Cat Whisperer.. You're welcome. Yes either could be used for ignition. Smaller charges have always been used to set off larger charges such as blasting caps...I think Remington has an electronic ignition on some rifle now. The cannon idea with an ignitor of a spark design could be one lead instead of 2 by using the metal casing as one lead and you would need only 1 insulated lead going into the charge and it would spark to the cannon wall. Possibly a sparkplug or modification of one threaded into the cannon.

I'll talk sometime about adding mechanical devices to cannon like the percussion cap ignitions. It's interesting. Hermit

mwarnick1 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2004, 06:23:07 AM »

If this was done in the US wouldn't the Feds now consider this a destructive device requiring a Federal tax stamp? It would no longer use a period ignition device.

?????

Matt

Chugiak, Alaska

Calamity Jane · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2004, 07:42:59 AM »

Ya know fellers, I'z made both a fuse 'n' a cap system fer my cannon.

Although the fuse "looks better" fer photo ops, I REALLY like the cap ignition, but then agin I often shoot in public.

With fuse ignition, once the fuse has burned below the touch hole, yer committed to the shot even if the range conditions change. With the lanyard/cap system, it don't go BOOM 'til ya pull the lanyard 'n' if ya pull the lanyard, it goes BOOM right now.

One problem I see with electric ignition would be protecting your contacts from damage while loading. You contacts should really enter the chamber from the cascable end (parallel to the bore) and puncture the powder bag.

It would be intersting trying to pass the conductor thru the barrel, maintain the insulation (from the barrel) and yet withstand the pressure and heat of firing.

Hermit · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2004, 02:04:57 PM »

Quote from: mwarnick1

If this was done in the US wouldn't the Feds now consider this a destructive device requiring a Federal tax stamp? It would no longer use a period ignition device.

??

Matt

Chugiak, Alaska

Matt.. You're getting very close. Muzzeloaders do not generally fall under destructive device, 62 cal fusils etc. Mechanically firing a cannon? hmmm Trust me, you will never get the same answer from 2 different ATF agents and if you ask the same person the same question twice,, bet there is a chance it will also be different. Not because they are the jerks they are made out to be but their own laws are so vague and difficult to understand that they can't either :-D I don't want to stir the pot here being a newbie but ATF is "wierd" Their definition of an "antique firearm" is very very VERY specific. Antique is percussion, flintlock, matchlock, pre 98 with obsolete ammo, REPLICAS thereof and on and on. (I can print it for those interested or get it on atf website) Their definition of a firearm is "anything that fires a projectile" (for tax purposes) Anyone notice savage ML using 209 primers need a 4473 transfer now??? Being a licensed manufacturer 07 with the ATF I have to pay an excise tax on a bow, a rifle, a pistol, a percussion rifle, ie anything that fires a projectile. Some states also break it down into "fire a projectile by explosive force" like Maine thereby eliminating a bow and a "slungshot" as they call them,,, but for 10-11% ATF tax excise purposes I still have to pay the ATF for a osage orange stickbow if I make one same as if I build a fnfal in 308 with 20 round mags. Putting any mechanical device on a cannon possibly changes it's classification, note possibly. I'll get into it later when I have time and some backup documentation for you. believe me, dealing with ATF and regs is baffling and strange to say the least :shock: Hermit

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2004, 03:18:58 PM »

Since there are certain breach loading cannon that are grandfathered in (as being OK and not DD's) it would be interesting to research historically if there is any foundation for pre-turn-of-the-century electric ignition devices that would be have histerical significance.

As with most folks, I will do whatever it takes to not cross the line with BATF. Life's too short and there are plenty of other sources of excitement.

Hermit · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2004, 01:38:44 AM »

Cat,, I believe that is the key. If a cannon was originally configured a certain way or if there was documentation of a conversion,, should be on safe territory. I have actually found every single person involved in the BATF from inspectors, office staff to technology branch to be very personable and helpful. "They" are not out to get us as some believe, their organization is falsely and unconstitutionally founded and is an instrument of the people rooted in disarming us however,, and a useful tool if they do want you for something :shock: I try to stay nice and legal and follow the rules. However sometimes "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" weighs heavy and my actions could be questionable :twisted: Don't ever forget Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436p. 491either. "where rights secured by the constitution are involved, there can be no rule breaking or legislation which would abrogate them" or Marbury vs Madison 5 US (2 cranch) 137, 174,176 (1803) "all laws which are repugnant to the constitution are null and void" or Norton vs Shelby county 118 US 425 p. 442 " an unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties, affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed" Here is the link to "the citizens rule book" http://www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/1/CRB.htm I buy them in 25 lots and give them out to everyone who would read them. Order copies thru Whitten Press, address at the bottom of the website. Hermit

Double D · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2004, 02:40:53 AM »

If you go to the Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon shooting FAQ's posted at the top of this forum You will find your answer. Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon shooting FAQ's

If a cannon fires rimfire or fixed ammuition it is a destructive device. Muzzle loading cannon are not destructive devices. The key is fixed ammunition

That Excise tax you have to pay on ammunition, firearms, and archery equipment is part of the Robertson-Pittman Wildlife Restoration Act enacted at the urging of sportsmen in the 30's to provide funds for preservation of wildlife. Here a link to a website that talks about that law. http://federalaid.fws.gov/wr/restorin.html

mwarnick1 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2004, 06:44:19 AM »

Double D,

The part of the definition that concerns me is listed in below:

manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof,
whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)

I would love to set off my mortar electrically but I can't find a reference to mortars made before 1898 using an electrical ignition system.

Any thoughts?

Matt

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2004, 09:07:05 AM »

Ah, but your mortar is not electric ignition, it is spark ignition. it uses matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system. You can put a fuse/powder in it and fire it. Just because you use an electric device to ignite the fuse doesn't make the cannon a destructive device. If you use an electronic barbecue lighter to light your fuse the cannon isn't a destructive device.

On the other hand if you make it so the only means of ignition is electric, then you have destructive device, but even then only if your cannon was made after 1898.

The key is make the mortar so that it is matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system. Use electric glow wire to fire the fuse.

mwarnick1 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2004, 09:56:38 AM »

You have to love ingenuity! I had thought earlier that we were discussing lighting the main charge with the electrical system. Lighting the fuse electrically is an interesting idea.

I'm going to work on your idea of using the glow wire to light an extremely quick burning fuse. That has some real potential and brings up an interesting point. I need to find the ATF's definition of a fuse.

It's an interesting technical distinction. I usually shoot my mortar at organized shoots so I need to make sure I'm especially legal.

Nice discussion,

Matt
Chugiak, Alaska

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2004, 03:18:31 PM »

Why do you want electric ignition anyway?

Look at the post titled Slow match Questions. Tells how to make fuses and a linstock.

You won't find a definition of a fuse for an antique cannon. You have the definition of antique ignition systems.

If you muzzle load your cannon, charge it with black powder, the ignite the fuse or powder with an electric glow plug at an organized cannon match the ATF Raid team is not going to swoop in on you and carry you away. They have bigger fish to fry!!! (Ever consider one of the little electric igniters used on model rockets)

On the other hand if you start preaching the over throw of the government or use your cannon to batter down the vault door of the local bank then they might look a little closer.

Forget the electric ignition, use the powder filled straw fuse and linstock stock, and forget stressing yourself out over getting raided by ATF.

Just make sure your cannon doesn't use fixed or rimfire ammo, and uses some sort of antique ignition system. you'll have a lot more fun.

...and make sure you send us match report!!!

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2004, 03:56:55 PM »

MY motivation is simple. COST and TIMING.

If I can build a sparking device from a butane lighter piezo electric ignighter - (and build a replacable sparking gizmo on the mortar end) I can fire the thing for a very low cost, and in Artillary terms "At My Command" - without having to WAIT for the fuse nor possibly affect accuracy (VERY BIG GRIN).

So, for me, the issue is being rigorously within the law to allow convenience of shooting.

BUT for a match or when others are in attendance - the excitement builds as the fuse burns....

mwarnick1 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2004, 06:26:09 AM »

You're right -- I'm not concerned about the black helicopters swooping down to pick me up if I fired my mortar electrically...

...I'm concerned about the hassle and lecture I'd get from other shooters about my 'illegal destructive device'. Shooters are sometimes their own worst enemies - especially Class 3 shooters!

My motivation was also the ability to fire on command. We sometimes use mortars to place the opening shot during machine gun shoots. It would be easier and more exciting to let a chosen dignitary push a button than to light a fuse and wait for it to go off.

Thanks for the tip on the powder filled straw fuse and linstock stock. I'll check it out.

Matt

Hermit · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2004, 12:01:02 PM »

Quote from: Double D

If you go to the Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon shooting FAQ's posted at the top of this forum You will find your answer. Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon shooting FAQ's

If a cannon fires rimfire or fixed ammuition it is a destructive device. Muzzle loading cannon are not destructive devices. The key is fixed ammunition

That Excise tax you have to pay on ammunition, firearms, and archery equipment is part of the Robertson-Pittman Wildlife Restoration Act enacted at the urging of sportsmen in the 30's to provide funds for preservation of wildlife. Here a link to a website that talks about that law. http://federalaid.fws.gov/wr/restorin.html

Thanks DD. I will check out the resources more closely. I am new here and haven't been to all the available info yet but sure am enjoying the time I get to spend here. Tax? I figured it was for the feds new cars :roll: Hermit

Double D · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2004, 12:28:45 PM »

I can understand wanting the ignition on command instead of waiting on a slow burning fuse. Makes sense.

The slowmatch and powder filled straw would serve the same purpose and be more dramatic.

I had consider seting up my cannon for electric fire to take a Texas feral hog. Just never go to it.

maddmaxx · « **Reply #16 on:** May 11, 2004, 05:45:26 PM »

howdy. I just got here, and i'm late, so don't know if this has been cussed or discussed,but NONEL brand lead-in works great. If you know someone who is a shooter in a coal mine, they cut off what they need, and throw the rest out. Grab it! There ain't a cap on it any longer; just the plastic tube with magnesium powder. Stick it in the touch hole, and use a pistol primer to ignite it. Just stick the other end in the barrel of your pistol and snap the cap. Fire goes thru the tube and KA-BOOM! The cut-off NONEL pieces will only keep a short time, unless the ends are stoppered. No longer a shooter or miner, but was in the right spot to get a bushing big enough to make a 3.75" mortar. Still got it, and could use some info, so I'll be trying to catch up , but why make cartridges out of foil? Wouldn't a piece of pantyhose work better? Doesn't the foil stick in the vent? And has anyone else used pistons with rings for a projectile?

Double D · « **Reply #17 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:05:05 AM »

The purpose of the aluminim foil is to prevent premature ignition from a stray spark.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #18 on:** May 12, 2004, 03:42:51 PM »

Quote from: maddmaxx

... NONEL brand lead-in works great. ...

Thanks for the reference to Nonel. I hadn't been aware of the concept before.

Pistons? I can see it now - a V8 mortar! Hmmm. Would I have to fire it 1-7-3-6-2-5-8?

maddmaxx · « **Reply #19 on:** May 14, 2004, 12:51:46 PM »

Glad to know why. Picking foil out of the vent does seem less trouble than picking rammer splinters out of me. Thanks, DD.

Double D · « **Reply #20 on:** May 14, 2004, 02:55:46 PM »

Never had to pick foil out of the vent. When you put the charge in you prick the charge through the vent and put the fuse down the vent through the hole in the foil.

I you do need to worm the bore to get the foil out of the chamber.

maddmaxx · « **Reply #21 on:** May 15, 2004, 07:44:54 AM »

OK I get the picture. Now another question. What about using a straw full of smokeless powder for an insertable fuze for the vent? Anything dangerous here if the main charge is bp? (I've used cordite strands in place of fuzes on BB cannon due to the vent hole being so small, so I just am wondering if the same principle would work on something bigger) Also wondering if the firework "poppers" with the strings going out ea end could be made to work as a friction igniter without going to a lot of trouble. Any thoughts?

Double D · « **Reply #22 on:** May 15, 2004, 08:59:26 AM »

Why don't you just fill that straw with FFFFG black powder.

If you cannon is heavy enough you can get regular friction fuse. Check out resource list at the top of the forum.

airco02 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 21, 2004, 08:51:20 AM »

A very simple electric ignitor can be had a your local hobby shop. The ignitors for model rocket engine are cheap and are heated using any 6-12 volt source. Or if you have access to old flash bulbs, a few stands of the filaments twisted together will also work. I have a feeling a few strands of steel wool would also do the job. You will have to make some paper straws to insulate the ignitors from your barrel against shorts. I am making straws 1/8" dia. X 6" long to fit my vent. It is illegal to use any kind of remote firing device in Canada so I,ll use a linstock, fuse is hard to find here. Hope this helps.