Author Topic: I think I found my bear shotgun slug!  (Read 5364 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Daveinthebush

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1732
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« on: February 13, 2003, 03:45:01 PM »
I was surfing and found a new slug at the Remington Arms site called the BuckHammer. The energy for this slug is 900+ ft-lb over that listed Federal saboted slug.  The design is more wadcutter in design without the Foster skirt and almost a solid.

Has anyone tried it at all?  It looks like a viable solution for the shotgun toting bear defense gun over the Foster. :grin:

                 Velocity (fps) (M)1550 (50)1320 (100)1145
                 Energy (ft-lb) (M)2935 (50)2177 (100)1600
                 Trajectory (in) +1.8 0.0† -3.3
AK Bowhunting Certification Instructor
AK Hunter Certification Instructor
IBEP Bowhunting Certification Instructor

Offline Balto

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 50
slugs for bears
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2003, 05:59:27 AM »
Daveinthebush,

Have you checked out the Brenneke line????   They have a web sight.  Also this last year I was charged by a brown bear and the state troopers had to assisst me in removing the the hide (could not get the yearlings away from their moma).  The Troopers were carring 2 3/4" Rottweiller's Brand using the Brenneke line.  The trooper who assisted us said he had just killed a Brown bear the night before.  He said it was about 3 feet away  (and 10 o'clock at night  :( ) and was feeding on a black bear carcass during that sting operation going where those outlaws were trapping black bears and selling the gabladders ( was wondering why all those planes were buzzing us that week).    He said that the troppers really like those slugs for bear protection.  On the other hand he while going to the brown bear kill sight he mentioned that he and his wife like to go hiking during his off duty time and ussually carrys a short .458 win magnum.  So I doknow......

I posted another message in this chat room on what the Brenneke rep told me.  He said go with the Super Magnums.

Offline Daveinthebush

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1732
Brenneke
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2003, 08:27:21 AM »
Yes I am in favor of the Brenneke slugs as the way to go.  I have had too man bad experiences with Fosters and believe that a pure lead slug in NOT an option on dangerous game that bites back.  

That is why I was excited to see the new Remington Slug.  It appears to be almost a solid slug.

The biggest problem in Alaska is finding anything.  I went to Anchorage and bought 4 pounds of powder last weekend and paid $93.  That was a $30 saving over buying it here in Valdez.
AK Bowhunting Certification Instructor
AK Hunter Certification Instructor
IBEP Bowhunting Certification Instructor

Offline Yukon Jack

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 563
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2003, 08:16:18 PM »
:D Dave,
You mean the Prospector isn't carrying your favorite flavor of powder?  Dang, they just about everything there is to have in that store.  Last time I was there was last summer, sometime in late June and it did appear that they were targeting "eco-tourist" more than the resident hunter.  Still a dang neat store.  Least they got more than the Crow Creek Mercantile here in Girdwood.

YJ

Offline Daveinthebush

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1732
Stores here
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2003, 06:48:31 AM »
Gun powder is about 10-12$ a can more.
Gas is .30 more.
2 cans of spagetti sauce are about .74 more.
Milk is $3.10 or so.
Large coffee, I can buy 2 cans is Wasilla and save 3-4$ over the cost of one here.
Lipton noodles, I save about .50 a package.

Ouch!

But I have all the halibut and salmon I will ever need!
AK Bowhunting Certification Instructor
AK Hunter Certification Instructor
IBEP Bowhunting Certification Instructor

Offline Yukon Jack

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 563
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2003, 01:41:18 PM »
Dave,
Don't forget to factor in driving costs and time when comparing prices.  I know what you mean though.  Stuff is more expensive in Gwood than Anchorage and we are only 40 miles away.  I can save .10 a gallon on gas if I fill up while in Anchorage and always buy groceries there.  I'm not going to make a special trip in just to pick up a tomato, but if I'm already there, I buy what I need.  We buy milk at about the same price, though.

YJ

Offline dabigmoose

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 200
  • Gender: Male
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2003, 10:16:07 PM »
hi dave and Y-jack
 I agree those old foster slugs are not that good for bear
but a lot of people have used them.I like the brenneke slugs also.
I have been a little busy latley with grandmother being ill with
cancer she not doing the best but for in her 90s shes not
doing badly either.I have seen a brown bear out in kasilof
area this week and ran across some black bear tracks
in the caribou hills.Its getting closer to another spring
i have a bison hunt planned for march 8 i will be
gone for about 10 days hope all gos well.
Talk at yaou guys later
dabigmoose

Offline BattleRifleG3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2004, 03:29:58 PM »
Those slugs sound like a good setup.  Figure a Rem 870 with rifled barrel and extended tube would be a good setup?  I'd rather use my Moss 590 but I have yet to see a rifled barrel for it.
Moderator at www.gunandgame.com

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
Slug performance
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2004, 09:59:12 PM »
This post got me thinking.   LOng time ago a friend shot a caribou at less than 25 yards with a standard Forster slug and recovered the lead.  That slug spread out to over an inch in diameter and had a hole in the center! Looked like a big lead doughnut.  

Guess I've been pretty sloppy about my slug choices.  Better get some of the good ones next time in Anchorge.  I should know better. But if I'm real worried I'm carrying a rifle.
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline BattleRifleG3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2004, 10:30:30 PM »
Defense within 100yd is what I had in mind.  For hunting I'd take a 375 H&H, 338 RUM, 458 Win Mag, or at the very least a 450 Marlin.
Moderator at www.gunandgame.com

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2004, 08:41:51 AM »
I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Federal Premium Barnes slugs. The 3" mag version should be a pretty good slug for dangerous game. Like all Barnes projectiles you can expect nearly 100% weight retention.

Somehow slugs and brown bears just don't seem to work well together, but its better than hand to paw combat! :-D  :)  :-D

VH

Offline Paparock

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 56
  • Gender: Male
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2004, 04:32:37 PM »
Deleted by Paparock

Offline Gowge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 116
Remington 12ga Sabot Slugs
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2004, 08:29:32 AM »
Quote from: Paparock
:D Anyone tried the Remington Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded 12 ga Sabot load?


Last year, one of the guys on another forum reported shooting the Rem Core-Lokt Ultras in 12ga & hitting groups inside 5" @ 200 yards with a single shot H&R Slug Gun with fully rifled barrel & scope.

These Core-Lokt Sabot slugs might be 50 caliber, but my guess is they're 45s...   too bad Remington doesn't give more details.  

GOOD LUCK!   :wink:
The wicked flee where no man pursueth but the righteous are bold as a lion.

Offline beard01

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2004, 02:39:44 PM »
I understand that Sylvestri slugs have a 3 inch mag putting a 750 grain slug at 1900 fps. I sure could be wrong on those figures . Would any one have access to those ballistics?  beard01

Offline Cabin4

  • Avery H. Wallace
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Male
  • Out West
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2004, 03:44:19 AM »
Can anyone sight a case were a slug gun has been successful or not-successful in a brown bear hunt ?

With all the new slugs coming about and all the claims of how they can kill dangerous game, I would like to see some results from the field.
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
S.A.S.S/NRA Life Member/2nd Amendment Foundation
CCRKBA/Gun Owners of America
California Rifle & Pistol Association
Ron Paul Was Right!
Long Live the King! #3

Offline Cabin4

  • Avery H. Wallace
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Male
  • Out West
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2004, 07:05:26 AM »
Thanks for all the good bear attack info. But can you help me here please. Can you point to a specific article that states that large brown bears have been hunted successfully with slugs ?

With all the claims of these new slugs, I would think there would be some success to point to.


I am aware of the effect of slugs on black bears in baiting situations. They are very effective at these close ranges on small to med size (250lbs) bear. But there is a very, very big difference between a 250 lb bear and a 800 lb monster. And the killing power needed to dispatch an 800lb brown is not just 4 X a 200lb bear, its more like 20 X. A 200 lb bear is not much more difficult to kill than a large whitetail dear. The hide and muscle mass is just not there yet.

Thanks
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
S.A.S.S/NRA Life Member/2nd Amendment Foundation
CCRKBA/Gun Owners of America
California Rifle & Pistol Association
Ron Paul Was Right!
Long Live the King! #3

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
12 ga for hunting bear
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2004, 11:21:09 PM »
Cabin4 I sure haven't heard of anybody intentionally hunting brown bear with a 12 or 10 gauge here in Alaska.  It may have happened but most folks I know of might  carry shotguns for defense while working, fishing, tramping about, but will grab a rifle when specifically hunting (seeking) brownies. This new slug technology might change this.

The exception, like someone posted earlier - most  AK Troopers and Fish and Game staff  are issued shotugns and quite a number have sought out and killed problem brown bears with 12 ga slugs.  I think a small grizzly that got into a Pipeline camp building was killed with slugs.  But, I also know of a couple Fish and Game biologists who carry .350 rems,.338 or .375 when seeking out a problem bear - might depend on if its close to people and habitations or not as well as other circumstances.  I obtained a .338 for my crew to use at Lower Talarik Creek a few years after a brownie was harassing our cabin (climbed in one window and out another while crew was in the field). But its the only cabin for miles - and I had to wait for the right opportunity to get the rifle.

I do know of a guy who carries slugs while duck hunting and has taken one moose with a slug.  And part of the Mat-Su area north of Anchorage now restricts moose hunters to shotguns - I bet those folks will be real interested in these new slugs too.

Are there any Alaskan dealers for these new slugs?  I'd like to get some.
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline Cabin4

  • Avery H. Wallace
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Male
  • Out West
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2004, 06:56:21 AM »
I am very interested in these new slugs and how they perform. Since a heavy 12ga slug gun has substantial recoil and similar to a big bore center fire rifle round, I ask whats the real advantage ?

As an example, if I was going to hunt browns, I would like a 375 ultra mag or the likes of a 340 weatherby mag. I think most would agree that these rifles would be a better choice than any 12ga slug gun. Having said this, I guess the advantage in a bear attack situation is the pump action and its fast follow up shots. This is a real advantage. However, I would prefer the likes of a guide gun in 45-70 lever action with 5 shots versus 3 of a slug gun.

I don't have any real answers here, just fishing around trying to understand how a slug gun could fit in.
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
S.A.S.S/NRA Life Member/2nd Amendment Foundation
CCRKBA/Gun Owners of America
California Rifle & Pistol Association
Ron Paul Was Right!
Long Live the King! #3

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
slug guns
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2004, 08:06:08 AM »
Well off the top  of my head, some advantages of slug guns are lighter weight - a real big consideration for a carry defense gun.  Also with the cylinder barrels slug guns are much shorter than most of the magnum rifles unless you have one specially cut down.  And slug guns are usually cheaper - one of the considerations for govt employees who carry them.   Being bought only for defense /control, ranges are expected to be short and the shorter lethal range of the shotgun is sufficient as well as desired in populated situations.  I think too for govt folks, the slug gun might be more versatile - one gun for bear / wildlife control as well as dealing with various social issues.  One can buy rubber bear deterrent rounds for the 12 ga, paint loaded bean bag rounds for deterring and marking problem animals, bird scare rounds, and the belief that buckshot is an important and effective option - again add on the social control rounds available (including just the presence of a large diameter barrel).  I suspect a lot of govt bosses might feel that a slug gun might be less controversial to the general public.  I've talked to at least one game biologist who has dealt with a number of problem animals who said the 12 ga is pretty darned effective for much of his duties - though he recently obtained a 375 for those unique ot her times.  Another thing too, at least untin the last 10 years, I think a lot of pump shotguns were made a little more weather and abuse resistant than rifles (pre-stainless).  And finally I think in some circles its thought that more employees might be familiar with and more readily trained  and more likely to be effective with a shotgun than rifle; that may not be true these days when fewer and fewer young folks come to work with firearms experience.
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline Cabin4

  • Avery H. Wallace
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Male
  • Out West
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2004, 09:01:29 AM »
Dand,

You mention some very good and valid points.
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
S.A.S.S/NRA Life Member/2nd Amendment Foundation
CCRKBA/Gun Owners of America
California Rifle & Pistol Association
Ron Paul Was Right!
Long Live the King! #3

Offline Gowge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 116
You Probably Wouldn't Like Slugs
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2004, 03:58:35 PM »
Quote from: cabin4
I am very interested in these new slugs and how they perform. Since a heavy 12ga slug gun has substantial recoil and similar to a big bore center fire rifle round, I ask whats the real advantage ?


I doubt you would like using a Full Bore, Hard Hitting Slug Gun.    The recoil is significant compared to a lot of rifles which you would probably prefer.  This thread was not about rifles vs slugs, but slugs in general and which slugs might be more effective for BEAR.  

For a lotta' folks who already own a 12ga shotgun, they can use these high performance hard cast slugs for some hunting situations and as a backup firearm for stopping a charging animal...   I sure wouldn't limit myself to just three rounds when hunting dangerous game with ANY slugs.   I would ensure I had a full magazine loaded up or I wouldn't be trompin' thru the woods with bears!  ;)

GOOD LUCK!   :D
The wicked flee where no man pursueth but the righteous are bold as a lion.

Offline dabigmoose

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 200
  • Gender: Male
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2004, 07:21:27 PM »
Ya know
 Hunting a Brownie with a slug gun with a high quality ammo would be
about the same as hunting one of the 50 or 54 cal inline black powder rifles its been done but you need to be very close and stealthy.You should have the advantage of a second quick shot. But you better make sure your the one doing the hunting.
Dabigmoose

Offline Gowge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 116
Re: 12 ga for hunting bear
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2004, 05:57:10 AM »
Quote from: Dand
....Are there any Alaskan dealers for these new slugs?  I'd like to get some.


Dand, drop a note to the guys @ Dixie Slugs and ask.  I know they supplied some special softcast lead slugs to guys up there who are hunting with the Pedersoli Big-Bore Kodiak (73cal) Double Rifles...   You can buy the slugs alone, ready to load yourself or you can get loaded ammo direct from Dixie Slugs.   These slugs are getting surprising performance at low chamber pressures - far lower pressures than I had ever expected.  

The SAAMI Max for 12ga shells, both slugs and shot, is 11,500PSI, except the 3½" which is 14,000PSI.   We learned over the past year during the Dixie Slugs development that SLUGS just don't produce nearly the pressures that the identical recipe would produce with a shot load.  

WE know from previous Industry Testing, that Plastic Shells will hold together @ over 15,000PSI, at which point they'll begin to fail.    The newest  Remington 870 actions are proofed at pressures far beyond that point.

I would love to see some performance numbers from pressure barrels for the Terminator & Predator Slugs in 3" shells at 12,500psi to 13,500psi.   IF a 3½" Plastic Shell has a SAAMI Rating up to 14,000PSI, I expect a carefully loaded slug in a 3" shell will handle at least close to that pressure too.

IF a man can stand up to the recoil, these slugs could be handloaded to higher velocity and enormous energy levels.

From the Dixie Slugs website, we see:

The following is the pressure curve tests supplied by Alliant Powder Company:

Dixie Terminator-.729"-740 gr-34 grs Alliant "Steel" powder-1181’/"-7280 psi

Dixie Terminator-.729"-740 gr-36 grs Alliant "Steel" powder-1213’/"-8400 psi

Dixie Terminator-.729"-740 gr-38 grs Alliant "Steel" powder-1281’/"-9850 psi

Dixie Terminator-.729"-740 gr-40 grs Alliant "Steel" powder-1350’/"-10,500 psi


A handloader could go another 1,000psi for even more velocity without exceeding the SAAMI Specs...  More details on the Dixie Website on:

http://www.dixieslugs.com/dixieslug.html

GOOD LUCK!   :D
The wicked flee where no man pursueth but the righteous are bold as a lion.

Offline beard01

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
I think I found my bear shotgun slug!
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2004, 09:35:29 AM »
I stand corrected . The slug was a Sauvestre not a Sylvestri the weight was 400 grains and the velocity was 1640 feet per second. This slug is a tad on the high side in price.    beard01 :money:

Offline Gowge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 116
RECOIL OF HEAVY SLUG LOADS
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2004, 05:56:38 AM »
It should be noted, that the recoil from a heavy slug load is considerable.  Some people just can't do it - it's more than they can tolerate.

Chuck Hawks wrote the following in an article on his excellent website about shotgun recoil...  These are for shot loads - not slugs...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/12gauge.htm

"The principle drawbacks of the 12 gauge shotgun are the size and weight of the typical 12 gauge gun itself, especially the repeaters, and the recoil generated by the big shells. These two factors make the 12 gauge unsuitable for many shooters.

According to the Shotgun Recoil Table the recoil energy of a 1 ounce target load at 1180 fps in a typical 7.5 pound gun is 17.3 ft. lbs., about like the recoil of a .270 rifle. The typical promotional shell with 1 ounce of shot at 1290 fps in the same shotgun hits back with around 20.8 ft. lbs. of recoil energy, about like an average .30-06 rifle. These loads deliver about as much recoil as most shooters can stand on a continuing basis.

A typical high-brass load with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at a MV of 1330 fps fired in a 7.5 pound shotgun is much worse. It belts the shooter with 36.4 ft. lbs. of recoil. This is roughly equivalent to the kick of a .300 Ultra Mag. rifle. Average hunters should strictly limit the number of such loads they fire to avoid developing a flinch.

12 gauge Magnum shells are even worse. A 2 3/4 inch Magnum shell throwing 1 1/2 ounces of shot at 1260 fps from a 7.5 pound shotgun belts the shooter with 45.9 ft. lbs. of recoil, somewhat more than the recoil of a typical .375 H&H Magnum rifle shooting 300 grain factory loads! And the 3 inch Magnum 12 gauge shell firing 1 7/8 ounces of shot at a MV of 1210 fps in that same 7.5 pound shotgun slams the shooter with over 60 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. This is equivalent to the recoil of a .378 Weatherby Magnum rifle, and exceeds the recoil of a typical .458 Winchester Magnum rifle. This is literally recoil in the elephant gun class, and most shooters would be well advised to avoid such loads."

Don't forget, these full bore slugs are .73 caliber and run from 650gr to well over 700 grains in weight.   Most of the true monster magnum rifles weigh in @ ten pounds, with very few under 9.5lbs.   IF you're going to be using a powerful load in your shotgun, it makes a lot of sense to add as much weight as you wish to that 7-1/2lb shotgun - longer magazine tube and more shells, or a recoil compensator, X-Heavy Barrel, etc.    

The 458 Lott in a ten pound rifle delivers recoil just over 70ft/lbs @  71.1lbs.  

The 500 Nitro and 505 Gibbs recoil, measured in 12lb rifles delivers  78.3lbs and 78.8lbs respectively.  

Hunting trophy bears is NO sissy game - you can do it more safely with a powerful rifle, but we're talkin' about carrying a VERY heavy big bore rifle that hits with considerable recoil.  

GOOD LUCK!   :D
The wicked flee where no man pursueth but the righteous are bold as a lion.