Convert 410 to 38 ????

[Hooker]

I have an old Iver Johnston 410 single shot it's been in the family forever.
Can't remember when it was shot last. But the muzzel is egged and needs to be cut back behind the choke. I realy dont need another 410 so I thought it would make a sweet single shot rifle in 38 or 357. Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this.

Thanks
Pat

[gunnut69]

I don't know about the strength factor but the 410 and the 45 Colt is probably the way to go. TC used to make the contender in a combo 45Colt/410. The Barrel was rifled but there was a screw in choke system(or screw ON choke system) that had the ability to hold a tube that was both choked and rifled, but with straight rifling.  That was to stop the shotcharges spinning.  They work quite well.  You could perhaps reline and use the 38 Special but the 357 operates at around 35,000 PSI and you old single shot won't handle that much pressure..

[BIGBOREFAN]

My suggestion is to cut the barrel to 18 inches install one of those snap on fiber optic sights. Then shoot some good 410 slugs. Probally be just as accurate as trying to shoot 38's thru a smoth bore plus it should be a descent 30 yard deer gun. Again just a thought and my  :money: Of coarse this would be the cheapest way to go.


BBF

[maggot]

Go for it. I have a similar project I'm working on, if it works out I'll let you know. Don't worry to much about safety, you only live once!

[Badnews Bob]

Won't work unless you lined the bore. .38s are .357 or .358 size bullets a 410 shotgun has a .410 bore,  .45 LC fits but I don't think i'd trust it in that older shotgun. On a scary side note, .45 70s fit to but please make sure I'm not in the same county if you try it! :eek:

[Flash]

Smooth bore handguns and rifles and the posession of such are a felony. The Marble's Game Getter and the T/C smooth bore 410/45 Colt were the last of the Mohicans. These are specifically classified as prohibited firearms and even though your shotgun can shoot a rifle round, I wouldn't do it and certainly not let the world know about it.

[willysjeep134]

I was allways under the impression that rifling didn't matter so long as the barrel was over 18 inches long from breech face to muzzle. The later model game getters with 18 inch smooth bore barrels were and are legal, it's just that Marbles scrapped the product line because of lack of sales so these legal ones are rare. The earlier 16 inchers are more common but you need a special license to own them.

If you want to cut off the barrel to remove the choke you can, as long as it isn't any shorter than 18 inches. Most people cut down the barrel to  around 19 inches just incase the LEO that wants to measure it has a short tape measure. As long as the barrel is 18 inches and the overall length is more than 26 you are OK.

If you wanted to do something sort of on the cheap and didn't want to risk doing work on the barrel, there's a company in alaska that makes chamber inserts and barrel liners for shotguns. With .410 you are limited to smaller calibers. Here's their website. http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm
Good Luck.

[gunnut69]

Smooth bore handguns are indeed restricted. The Contenders were rifled as norm but had a choke device fitted to the muzzle, also rifled but with 'Straight' rifling.  The case was tried and was dismissed.  TC and others still make these weapons.  Smooth bore weapons per say are not illegal, regardless of the ammo fired.  Even the 'game getters' are on the curios list I believe which if effect says that though they may not met the letter of the law it is ridiculous to ban a weapon of this very limited utility.  BATFE's website should have the list and it contains such things as shoulder stocks for lugers, colt cap and ball revolvers, and even some WWII weapons..  The grief comes when a rifle is cut down...  then atf will have a definate interest!!

[Badnews Bob]

NEF still makes and sells the 45/410 rig with a removable choke I hear they don't shoot real well thou.

[Flash]

I realize that everyone has their opinion on this issue but I personally seen a complete gun show set-up taken down within the first hour when a dealer displayed a Game Getter on his table. The guys weren't very polite about the firearms either. They all went into big plastic totes with wheels on them and everyone's jaw dropped. The Game Getter was the only questionable weapon there too. Regarding the T/C 45/410, the first barrels produced were smooth bore. This was challenged in court and the rifling and choke tube came later. The smooth bore barrels are collectable but I can live without one.

[gunnut69]

The first TC 45/410 barrels were not smooth bored.  They were rifled and had an external choke that resembled an old weaver choke and it too was rifled but the rifling was straight.  The lawsuit was filed because the pistol fired a shotgun round and even though it followed the letter of the law since the law actually bans short barreled smooth bores, an the TC had rifling.  You cannot own a pistol with a smooth bore unless you have a federal tax stamp for it as a 'destruction device'.  This is the same as would be needed for an automatic weapon..  machine gun.  Formerly pistols such as many lugers and some high powers were made so that they could be attached to a shoulder stock and it was prohibited to own the stock and the pistol if the attaching hardware remained on the stock.  The gamegetters were also prohibited in the shorter barrel lengths as the were to short to be a legal length shotgun (18 inch barrel and a minimum or 28 inches overall). These weapons have all been reclassed as curios and DO NOT require transfer as class 3 weapons any longer.  There is a list of these kind of exceptions at the ATF website.  It is still illegal to make a pistol with a smooth bore and no one does..

[8rounder]

Hooker,
Have sent you a PM. Got some questions about the shotgun. The way you described it sounds exactly like the one a personal friend had when I was growing up in Texas.

David

[Flash]

The gun control act of 1934 restricted shotguns with barrels less than 18" in length. The terms "Destructive Device and Shotgun " were defined in the gun control act of 1968. The Contender appeared on the scene in 1967! There was much experimentation with many calibers and I wish I had a nickle for everyone who asked me if I ever seen a smooth bore 45. No, it wasn't in the Shotgun News or Guns Illustrated or even a special order item but yes, a smooth bore 45/410 was produced and they are as hard as hen's teeth to find. The 22 rimfire and 357 Magnum weren't the only calibers being tested back then.

[gunnut69]

If short barreled shotguns were made illegal in 1934(and they were) how could TC have produced them in 1967?  The answer, they didn't, they produced ssome contender barrels chambered for the 410 and the 45 colt but they were rifled.  That some of the rifling was straight rifling was not irrelavent.  Threats of lawsuits finally stopped production for a time but after the suit was won by TC production resumed of an improved version.  TC never made an Contender barrels that were smooth bored.  To have done so would have been illegal at any time from 1934 on.

[Flash]

Here we go again! A 45 colt can be fired in a 410 gauge shotgun, providing the choke is cut out. Does this make it an illegal gun? The 45 Colt designation makes it a handgun and the 410 designation makes it a shotgun. The Shotgun, firing a single or multiple projectile was definded in 1968 as was....the destructive device. If Joe Shmo made a handgun prior to 1968, called it a handgun and labeled it as a handgun.....it was a handgun. Whether it fired a 410 shotgun shell or not is another issue......hence, the language of 1968 G.C.A. To give you an example, a Contender Carbine and an Encore Carbine are not handguns but can be made into one easily. This, as you know, brought on the debate of the late 80's in Federal Court. Every firearm manufacturer made so many variants of different products and try to think how many employees somehow, came into posession of prototypes. There is no convincing you and it's obvious. Since Chamber adapters won't allow the projectile to touch the rifling when firing a 22 in a 410, does this make it a smooth bore rifle, aka 22/ Four Tenner by Savage? I am tired of debating this subject.

[gunnut69]

You cannot debate without facts and yours are mixed up.  'Smoothbore rifle' is an impossiblilty.  By definition a smooth bore has no rifling and conversly a rifle has rifling..the two cannot be used together.  Also regardless of what you 'label it' a smooth bored pistol(barrel less than 18 inches and less that 28 inches overall) is illegal.  TC never made a contender pistol length barrel that was smooth bored.  And a rifle is defined by the barrel length and not the caliber.  If a rifle is initially manufactured with a pistol length barrel, it is a pistol, i.e. the Remington xp100.  If you were to take the action from a Remington 600 and install a short barrel on it or shorten the existing barrel you would have made an illegal weapon a sawed of rifle.  It is never illegal to fire any ammunition you wish.  If you wish to fire a pistol round from a M70 and the barrel remains over 16 inches in length it will be as legal as can be.  If you shoot a 30-30 out of a contender with a 14 inch barrel it is quite legal.  If you were to buy a 30-30 and cut the barrel to 15 inches it would become illegal..  It this understandable.  The cartridge DOES NOT make anything legal or illegal it is purely the barrel length and overall length at MANUFACTURE and the presence or absence of rifling in the bore..  Regardless of ammunition fired and barrel of less than 18 inches with a smooth bore is illegal unless the weapon has been declared a curio or relic...    These weapons deffinitions were made in the 1934 gun control and included the controls on automatic weapons and explosives devices.  The GCA '68 simply altered the sale of weapons of all types, making it illegal to sell any weapon across state boundaries without going through a FFL licensed dealer.  It did not alter the status of sawed off shotguns, machine guns or destructive devices.   If stamping 45 colt on the barrel makes it a pistol then there are a lot of 94 winchesters out there with 20 inch barrels than are pistols.  Caliber does not decide whether the weapon is a pistol or not.  The barrel length and overall length does.  And even then it must be at manufacture.  If originally made a rifle it remains a rifle.  If originally made a pistol a longer barrel and a shoulder stock can be installed..  but not conversely.  As to the fourtenner by Savage, the only ones I've seen adapted smaller guage shotshells to large guages.  A 410 fired in a 20 or a 12 guage.  Firing a 22 rimfire or a 32 Colt or even a 30-30 in a shotgun doesn't alter the fact that the weapon is still a shotgun.  Firing a shot shell from a pistol also doesn't make it a shotgun.  If the rifling is removed from a pistol in 38 S&W then an illegal shotgun(destructive device) has been manufactured and the very act of making it is illegal as well as owning it., even though it is chambered in a pistol caliber..

[Badnews Bob]

look around and see what is avalibe leagaly, There are .410 bore derringers made and sold today just becuase it can shoot a shotgun round or a pistol round dose not matter. What matters is how it was origanaly manufactured. If it has been made within the law it is legal the problem comes when you modifiy it to be somthing else. It is perfectly legal to own a 3" long .410/.45LC derringer as long as that was how it was first built. It is not legal to cut a .410 shotgun down that short. As long as you keep the barrel longer than 18" you are legal in cutting one down.