How does a ML Bullet Kill?

[squirrel_hunter6]

Hi Guys,

I was wondering how a bullet kills an animal. From what I have read on the internet an arrow kills by hemoraging i.e. the animal bleeds to death. A high powered rifle kills an animal just by the shock of a bullet hitting the internal organs. From what I read the bullet has to travel over 2300 fps to kill by shock. Most Muzzleloaders don't shoot a bullet that fast. Does a muzzleloader kill more like an arrow by causing the animal to bleed to death?

If you shoot a deer with a muzzleloader, how long do you usually wait before you start to track it?

This upcoming season will be the first time that I have ever hunted with my muzzleloader. So far, I have shot the gun about a hundred times and I know that if a deer is within a 100 yards that I have the ability to shoot it. I will keep practicing just because I enjoy blowing smoke. :grin:  I believe that my only problem will be trying to find a deer because  I am an inexperience hunter when it comes to deer. Squirrels are another story. :-D

[quickdtoo]

Yup, mostly they bleed to death, that's why shot placement is critical. All the animals that I have hit with a .50 cal round ball have died within 75yds leaving a massive blood trail, very little blood at the site where the animal hits the ground. Spine hits are the exception as with any projectile. I've shot a couple with saboted .40 cal lead hp buffalo bullets that just missed the spine with high lung hits and they piled up immediately, so even they produce shock at sub 2k velocity.

[Trail Bum]

Kinetic Energy ! Imagine trying to Stop a BIG Conical, Propelled by a Mid Charge of your Favorite Propellent. Not Hard to Imagine the Shock, and Broken Things, that Happen to get in it's way. I dont buy the No Shock, untill One reaches a Certain  Velocity. Sure Speed helps, but without the Speed , just add the Weight to the Projectile, and Let them try to eat just One, If properly Placed !

[quickdtoo]

Kinetic Energy ! Imagine trying to Stop a BIG Conical, Propelled by a Mid Charge of your Favorite Propellent. Not Hard to Imagine the Shock, and Broken Things, that Happen to get in it's way. I dont buy the No Shock, untill One reaches a Certain  Velocity. Sure Speed helps, but without the Speed , just add the Weight to the Projectile, and Let them try to eat just One, If properly Placed !

Energy is only good if it is applied to the animal. In the case of large  conicals, that means hitting big bones. For dangerous game, breaking em down is important, but not for elk and deer. Shoot either through the lungs and that big bullet doesn't do much but go on through unless it's a hollow point designed to expand. I prefer to eat my deer and elk and have as much meat as possible for my effort. To me, shooting an animal in the shoulder is a waste of good eatin. I prefer a projectile that will do some internal damage while in the animal and barely exit, if at all. Destroy their lungs and they are dead, period. I know of too many deer and elk shot with conicals hit high in the lungs that were still alive hours after the hit with little or no blood trail. The big bullets with lots of energy don't do much if the energy is used up outside the critters body. The last time I shot an animal in the shoulder was when I was young and didn't know any better, my dad quickly pointed out the error of my ways when we didn't pack that 20-30lbs of lost meat home.....

[sabotloader]

I might suggest another thought.  The Whitetail I shot this year and the one last year are my two testimonials, I wish I had pictures.  

The deer this season was shot at 65 yards quartering down the hill to me.  I shot it with a 250 grain Nosler Partition Hollow Point.  The bullet enterered just in front of the right shoulder exit wound was out the at the back of the left rib cage.  The animal dropped on the spot.  When I opened him up his heart and lungs were pulverized - they were liqud.  The hydraulic shock effects of the HP created an explosion of tissue inside.

The entrance wound was pretty clean but the exit wound was pretty jagged.  I attribute that to the expansion of the bullet and the cutting action of that the jagged copper did on it's way through the animal.

To me, velocity, energy, cutting tissue, and hydraulic shock are the keys to a clean quick kill - some where there bullet placement fits in also as a vital key.

If you want to see the effects of hydraulics, set up two gallon milk jugs full of water with the caps on,  back to back at around 75 yards to a pot shot with an XTP and watch the show.  The thicker the water, mud,  the bigger the boom.

[SURVEYOR]

I might suggest another thought.  The Whitetail I shot this year and the one last year are my two testimonials, I wish I had pictures.  

The deer this season was shot at 65 yards quartering down the hill to me.  I shot it with a 250 grain Nosler Partition Hollow Point.  The bullet enterered just in front of the right shoulder exit wound was out the at the back of the left rib cage.  The animal dropped on the spot.  When I opened him up his heart and lungs were pulverized - they were liqud.  The hydraulic shock effects of the HP created an explosion of tissue inside.

The entrance wound was pretty clean but the exit wound was pretty jagged.  I attribute that to the expansion of the bullet and the cutting action of that the jagged copper did on it's way through the animal.

To me, velocity, energy, cutting tissue, and hydraulic shock are the keys to a clean quick kill - some where there bullet placement fits in also as a vital key.

If you want to see the effects of hydraulics, set up two gallon milk jugs full of water with the caps on,  back to back at around 75 yards to a pot shot with an XTP and watch the show.  The thicker the water, mud,  the bigger the boom.

I get the same results with the Big Conicals. They have hydraulic shock thingy happening too.

Jules J.

[sabotloader]

Ya! I bet - with the size that they mushroom out to I really belive the tissue shock - for the lack of a better name "hydraulic effect" could be staggering.  This hydraulic effect is most noticible on the vital organs any of them but you can also see it in muscle tissue but not quite as visual.

PS - you have convinced me of the merits of the 460 - I surrender - and when the day comes I can not use copper I will be using the 460

PSS - check Greybeard last post on the 777 string on the traditional board...  That could shake things up over there a bit.

[AndyHass]

Whoever told you a bullet has to be going 2300 fps to kill by shock is full of it.  ML bullets kill by shock too.  Shoot a deer through the lungs, and you will usually find a mass of jelly inside whether the bullet exited or not.  Hydraulic shock can happen even if the bullet punches through.
   If you shoot a deer through both lungs, it is dead.  It may run a short distance, but no matter what bullet type was used or what caliber it will go down relatively quickly.  I've never found a need to shoot for the shoulder, I shoot through the heart and/or lungs and they have NEVER made it more than 70 yards (which takes a running deer about 2-3 seconds).

[Trail Bum]

Quickdtoo. Your Points are Valid, and one that  I Subscribe to, in my Hunting Adventures. I was trying to Discount the Notion, that one must have Velocity in Excess, to have a Chance at Harvesting any Game Animal.I accept the Fact, that ML , are not High Powered Rifles, and can not deliver their Deadly Package at Blistering Speeds. That is the Reason Ive taken apon the Conditions of Forsaking High Power,for the Limitations that ML provides. I Myself, try to Break Down the Quarry, every Shot I attempt. To me, I feel that this is Ethical ! If  I happen to Waste a Little Meat in the Process, Im equipped to Except that Loss. My Opinion, is That Neck Meat is Terrible, unless one wants to Jerk it, or have a Supply for the Chili. My Motto , Make it Quick and Humane, at all Cost, and to me, That is the Entrance Music, for a Heavy Conical. Have  A Great day, and a Super Hunting Season. TB

[Trail Bum]

Andy, Good Point. All of the Energy, that a Projectile will Impart, Imparts it at the Impact. Not talking Momentum, from Mass, just Shock. From Reading your Reply, you yourself Know the Benifit. Good Hunting! JMO

[Longcruise]

Broadheads, high velocity jacketed bullets, round balls, conicals, etc. etc. all kill the same.  Hemmorhage!  The faster blood pressure is reduced the faster they go down.

ML slugs in the .45 cal and up range do not have any need to expand if they have a broad flat meplat up front.  The bullet, even at velocities as low as 1000 fps, will make a more than adequate wound channel that will reduce blood pressure to almost nothing within seconds.  And, if it does not expand, even at 1000 fps it is going to make a long wound channel across the boiler room.  Dead animal.

ML hunters are deluged with one bullet component after another that is marketed just like the high velocity jacketed stuff.....expansion!  The guys selling us that stuff know that we are educated by the killing process of modern jacketed hunting ammo and they sell their stuff the same way.

Gotta be careful getting down off this soap box, just endured my 58th birthday. :-D

[Old Cane]

Are we all talking about "hydrostatic" shock? I think "hydraulic shock" would be more related to what I get when the 3 point hitch on my Massey quits working. And yes, you may have to get to 2300 fps to get enough kill power out of a rifle if you are shooting a 55g bullet. A round ball or powerbelt weighs much more. It's all related. They can bleed to death, suffocate, have a heart or liver that quits working and so on and son.

[sabotloader]

YES!

I knew there was a proper term "Hydrostatic Shock" Thank you YES!

[Old Cane]

I thought maybe this was a new term. I was still getting used to the other one. I really am getting old. And don't worry, you're not alone. I hear it used all the time.

[jbtazgrabber]

hey i have a question how many deer have you killed and with what projectile??   how manyknow you hit a deer and couldnt find it  ?   again what projectile??  how many have thought they hit and couldnt find?? what  projectile  ?

[Longcruise]

hey i have a question how many deer have you killed and with what projectile

Ok, not going to count those killed with modern guns and bows, only with ml guns.  Also, gonna throw in the elk and antelope that were killed with ml.

Comes up to two elk, 1 antelope, and four mule deer.  All but one elk and one deer were killed with either .50 or .54 round balls.  The elk and deer that were killed with conicals were both killed with 370 grain .50 maxi balls.

The round balls were the fastest, and most effective killers.  The elk and deer that were hit with the maxi's stayed on their feet the longest.  If the elk had ran instead of milling around trying to figure out what was going on, he would have made the thick stuff and maybe not been recovered.  Stayed on his feet a full 30 seconds or more.  The deer walked about 100 yards and then layed down.

It's my opinion that the Maxi is a very poor projectile for hunting, all based on those two kills above.  The deer was a mere 35 yards away and the charge was 90 gr ffg goex.  The wound channel was not significant at all.  Same thing with the elk, the maxi double lunged the elk but the wound channel was not that large.  I think its the pointy nose cone design that does not displace much tissue as it penetrates.  Have never hit an animal with a REAL but would bet it would have the same result.  Muzzle velocity on these shots was about 1300 to 1350 and pure lead does not expand all that well once it drops under 1250.  based on those two kills and others with modern large caliber low velocity bullets I've become an advocate of large flat meplats that won't expand and will penetrate with a good wound channel.

how manyknow you hit a deer and couldnt find it ?

I had an easy shot on a deer a few years back.  25 yards max.  Just as I touched off, the deer did one of those little forward jumps like a fly had bit it's butt or something.  .54 Ball went through the gut and exited spewing stomach matter over the bushes.  Tracked as far as possible and then searched the rest of the day and never found the deer.  No blood from a gut shot

So much for true confessions :-D

[/u]

[Redhawk1]

hey i have a question how many deer have you killed and with what projectile??   how manyknow you hit a deer and couldnt find it  ?   again what projectile??  how many have thought they hit and couldnt find?? what  projectile  ?

I have killed 3 deer with Hornady 240 gr. XTP with sabots and 2 deer with power belts and 2 with great planes bullets. I have not had any deer get away from me using a muzzleloader. I also have never lost a deer in bow or gun season. I have been very fortunate to make all clean kills.  

[jbtazgrabber]

ive shot 12  to20 cant remember exactly..  45 cal was a nightmare  54cal round balls were fair but not much blood . this is my problem if a deer run past 30 yds. with no blood in my neck of woods you might not find. 58 round balls better knock down but still no blood . lost the biggest buck  using 58 35yds. broadside knoked over kicked a couple times and ran off never to be found.  no blood.  72cal is great havent had one take a step yet but no range. should i start holding on sholder in stead behind shoulder/?? with 54 and balls. seen a big buck last year after shot a 6 point 2 days earlier. need more range than 72 allows .  gun dont like sabots, to slow twist.

[AndyHass]

My first kill was with a Buffalo Ball-et...not enough damage, so I switched bullets.
  I killed about 20 deer with the 240 grain Hornaday HTP bullet...ranges from 10 to 198 yards.  Some dropped in their tracks, some ran a short (ie 20-40 yards) distance.  No woundings.  Eight consecutive heart shots once!
This string proved to me that travel distance of a wounded deer is not just a factor of the bullet...some of these deer fell straight down, others made it 40 yards with a heart shot from the same range with the same bullet.
  Upon switching guns, I shot the 250 grain QT from Precision Rifle for a single year.  Killed three deer from 6 to 180 yards.  Again, none traveled more than a few bounds.
  The last year I switched to the 195 grain Dead Center Duplex.  Killed 4 deer, from 70 to 170 yards.  Smalled bullet I ever used but absolutely devestating.  I recovered the bullet from the 70 yard shot (frontal hit) and it looked like a nickel after traveling almost 2 feet through tissue.

[zrifleman]

I read an unsolicited letter from an outfitter in New Mexico written in 2002 about experiences with their clients using Buffalo Bullet conicals in a Remington 700 ML. They had killed over 100 head of game, including deer, elk and antelope without a hitch. Along with the letter was a large number of pictures of trophy animals taken along with pictures of recovered bullets and targets shot at various distances.  For me this was excellent documentation of the effectiveness of Buffalo Bullets conicals on a large number of animals. I beleive the letter said none of the animals required a second shot.  Expansion in many cases was twice original diameter. As I remember the powder charge was 150 grs of Pyrodex.

[aulrich]

I have to admit to being an incurable tinkerer over the years I have taken deer with round balls conicals and sabots just not a lot with any one of them.  I have only had one drop stone dead (longest follow up 20 yards) and that was shot with a pure lead conical (TC 360 gr mold) that buck was shot at about 15 yards  I was surprised to find the bullet still in the animal (in  the off side ribs) but it had flattened out to about 1.5" in diameter.  I was least impressed with the round ball but it did stop the animal right there I just had to cut it's throat.

I have read one therory that states shock does not kill the animal it just incapacitates it until it bleeds out.

[JoeLansing]

I hunt in the woods in Michigan.  Private land, unlimited doe tags.  A long shot for me would be 50 yards.  The place I've been hunting the last 3 years average shot is about 15-20 yards.  The only problem is where the deer come through is on a corner of the property right next to an overgrown christmas tree farm.  If they run 50' they are in that crap and gone.  I used to use a 30.06, and by reading too many magazines I'd shoot them through the lungs and they'd run.  Almost no blood trail because the deer are so fat that the external wound seals.  A few yards of a pink foam trail, then nothing.    I got tired of it.  I bought a smokepole.  6 of my last 7 deer I shot in the neck at 10-20 yards.  None took a step.  I did shoot one through the lungs.  It ran into the pines never to be seen again.  Now I just neck shoot.  I sit next to a tree, no blind, and they come walking down a 2 track, and cut across the corner of the property going for the pines.  I dump them in the 2 track, deer walk by every 20-30 mins.  Takes me 1-2 hours and I drive the car down, toss 2 deer in the trunk and drive back home.  I shoot till I'm tired of processing.  Usually about 4 a year.  All with 295gr HP Powebelts that I drill the middle out of a bit more.  I don't need penetration on a neck shot.  I took 2nd place state with a bow, but have no desire to stick a deer with an arrow and chase it.  I'm lazy, I like venison.  My buddies have started calling me Vampire cuz I always go for the neck..

[Longcruise]

Joe, you seem to have adapted the perfect tactics for your hunting situation and that is exactly what all good hunters do.  I know what you mean about the lack of blood trail.  Most animals that I double lung with both an entrance and exit wound don't leave much blood trail be it bullet or broadhead.