Which gun should I grab first?

[huntsman]

While I agree that it is best to plan ideally for the worst-case scenario, I don't agree totally with the concept of abandoning either: 1) a locked-up-but-loaded arsenal, or 2) a plan to react if time allows. These may well be the next best thing to the perpetual carry defense in some cases.

It is simply not desirable in my household to have a loaded gun always at the ready. I have young children and a wife who are both troubled by guns for different reasons, and I don't feel comfortable about having a loaded gun either constantly carried or lying about. Children can become curious, dogs can decide that a holstered gun is a toy, responsible adults can have lapses of judgment and memory, and family members and guests can feel threatened by an armed family member, especially during tense moments or unfamiliar greetings. If I was a law enforcement official and was duty-bound to carry, this might be different.

While it is certainly possible for an intruder to slip silently into the house in the dead of night undetected, or walk in unexpectedly in broad daylight and totally surprise our family, it is hardly the most likely scenario. Most violent criminals don't operate openly in daylight hours in the busy residential neighborhood where we live. Doors and windows of our house at night are locked, and our dogs (both one in the main house and one in the master bedroom) have shown to be very adept at alerting to the slightest unusual noises (even wildlife in the back yard or in the attic have set them off).

I have rolled out of bed from a deep sleep and armed myself in less than 20 seconds on many occasions when the dogs alerted to something at night or I heard an unusual noise. Given that a nighttime intruder must gain exterior access, orient to the internal environment, gain secondary access to a bedroom, reorient, and move around or attack over a barrier to stop my actions, all supposing his/her first intent is my subdual, I'd say there is at least a better-than-average chance I will have time to react and arm myself from my locked safe.

Given that perpetual carry is not in the cards for me, I feel the locked arsenal is the next best thing. So far I have never had to test this hypothesis, and I hope and pray I never will, but I do feel it adds a layer of defense that would be absent otherwise.

[rickyp]

The best approach to a home invasion is to hole up behind several locked doors with proper protection after the police are summoned or get the hell out of the house and let the police deal with a potential life and death situation

this would be the best thing to do, but not always passable.  I keep loaded handguns at both ends of my house locked in a safe
I would grab a long gun  last. A handgun is the best ( or one of the very short barreled rifles the seals use) for home defence. the reasoning is, If you are going from room to room with a long gun a bad person could be on the other side of a wall as you approach the corner  the barrel will be sticking way out  and all he/she would have to do is grab the muzzle with one hand push down on it and with the other hand push up some place close to the middle and he/she can very easy disarm you. I have shown this to some very big and strong men and was able to take the shotgun out point it at them and go bang before they even knew what happened.
The reason is simple leverage the bad person will have the advantage.

With a handgun you kep it close to the body any if the bad person grabs it you can still keep control of it.   I keep all mine loaded with glasher  safety slugs I can find.

[twodollarpistol]

Jeff Cooper once said "we use our handguns to fight our way to our shotgun." He has little respect for the .223 and the weapons that chamber them. Calls them poodle shooters and mouse guns, and says they are used for killing people with "moderate success". Now I have respect for all who serve, or have served, in law enforcement or the military. And Im sure many have had real first hand experience, but few I know, or know of, can match his credentials. He has been there and done that. He knows first hand what happens when you shoot people in all types of conditions with all kinds of weapons. He not only enjoyed a life long career in the military, but also founded and still oversees Gunsite. He and his staff trains thousands of police and others every year. His facility is one of the most respected in the world. His opinion is one I would place over most others. Especially the armchair experts that always pop up in these types of discussions that have nothing but an opinion. No names mentioned or implied. And we all know opinions are like a** holes everybody has one and most of them stink. Even mine.
 So I couldn't help myself. I had to try my own experiment with the birdshot thing. Took two pieces of 1/2" plywood at twenty feet. Covered it with an old pair of Lees and a ragged old field jacket that has shrunk to the point of no more use to me and shot it with two rounds of #6 AA's. The result was two holes about the size of my fist all the way through. Shattered the plywood pretty good. Now this is NOT my OPINION, this is actual results. Dont want to ever be shot by anything again, or ever have to kill anybody, but I have total confidence in my 20" 12 ga with #6's at inside the house ranges. I believe it was Robert357, could be wrong about that, Who suggested forting up in as secure spot as you can with sufficient  defensive weapon and call the police. Just stay there if you can and let the professionals with the necessary training and experience take care of business. Sounds like a plan to me. And since my children are no longer in the other part of my house and there is no need to go to them I think that is the plan I will use.

[gwhilikerz]

twodollarpistol, I have the utmost respect for Jeff Cooper, But I don't agree with him about the 223. It WILL do the job.  You have to remember that Cooper is from an era when it was the 30-06 and 45 acp that saved your bacon.  Now our military uses 223 and 9mm. If these didn't do the job why would we use them?
Now back to the original question. I would grab the shotgun loaded with #6 birdshot. If you are inside the house the range will be measured in feet not yards. No leather or carhart coat will stop a load of birdshot at close range.
About that gunsafe. If all your guns are locked in the safe and you have to unlock it to retrieve your gun then you lost the battle.

[rickyp]

 Now our military uses 223 and 9mm. If these didn't do the job why would we use them?

the military use of the the 223 and 9 mm has nothing to do with effectiveness  of the 2 rounds. It has everything to do with logistic and political reasons.

[twodollarpistol]

 Now our military uses 223 and 9mm. If these didn't do the job why would we use them?

the military use of the the 223 and 9 mm has nothing to do with effectiveness  of the 2 rounds. It has everything to do with logistic and political reasons.

 My view exactly Rickyp. Cooper is a staunch advocate of the .45 and the .308. These have proven there worth and effectiveness to him at least. It is also a fact that the Marines and many other elite groups are now being issued the .45 again. Seems like sound wisdom to me. Never have had much love for the 9MM. I also own a .223 and have no reason to believe it wont take care of business in its own right, but I do think the shotgun will level the playing field with one shot more effectively and more often at inside the house ranges. At least in my house. Just aint that big. Many who advocate the .223 as the first choice even mention several shots required and having extra mags handy. With my 12ga I dont feel the need to John Wayne the whole dang house. Could take more than one shot to hit the perp but certanly not 20 or 40. And when I do hit him, he's done. And while I do understand that over penetration is a real issue, my first concern would be for the safety of my wife and myself. There is no one else in our house at night ( assuming we are talking about night time invasions ) and if any #6's get out of my house there probably wont be enough energy left to do much damage.
J M H O

[rickyp]

lets not forget about muzzle blast from a shotgun. it will make you and anyone close to you def with the first shot.

the best thing to do is have several "safe rooms" in your house with at least one loaded weapon, a cell phone, hearing protection for everyone.

I have a "safe room" on both ends of my house one is my bedroom and the other is my gun room both have locks on the door. if someone gets in my house everyone gathers in what ever room is closest lock the door and use the cell phone to call the police. The only time I will be going trough my house when someone broke in is to gather my son then it will be right back in the room.
Shooting a person will be the very last resort.  

Now days we not only have to worry about the person breaking in our homes we also have to worry about law suits and criminal charges against us. If you shoot and kill someone in your house his family will sue you for wrongful death, if the police can see you had a way out but shot anyway you will be charged with murder. if you have deadly rounds in your weapon they will say you premeditated the murder  your best bet is to use something as close as you can to what the local police are using. I use the Glaser safety slugs. mostly because of the name they are a safe bullet :-D

If you stop an intruder you may save your families life but it will destroy it in the long run. You must think real hard before you consider pulling the trigger!

[twodollarpistol]

Rickyp
 I understand your point, but I must disagree to an extent. If someone breaks into my house ( the operative word being BREAKS ) all thought process has been done. My decision is made. If I get the opportunity I will shoot him until he quits wiggling. The safety of my family comes before all other concerns period, and I am sure he had plenty of time to think about risks and repercussions for us both before he decided to kick my door open. I once heard the argument that his life is worth more than my possessions. Well that is his decision, not mine. He has to know he is risking his own life in an attempt to get my possessions, therefore he places a higher value on my stuff than his life. Also, no law that I know of provides for the legal wounding of an assailant. If you have the legal right to shoot him you have the legal right to kill him. I do and will use the most effective ammo available to do just that. Then I will never have to face him again in a dark alley someday. Also there will be no one to argue with me in a court of law. There will just be my side of the story and the evidence. Someone else on one of these forums stated once, I cant remember who, that they had done some research and could not find any cases where anyone had been convicted on the type of ammo they had used, and I must say I have no knowledge of this either. I think it was attributed to one of the gun writers and urban myth.
I do however like and agree with your idea of a safe room ('s ) and I have already started setting up a similar arrangement in my home. Just makes sense to me.

[gwhilikerz]

I'm just not sure I would have time to get to a "safe" room if an intruder burst into my home. The fight will most likely be right where you are at the time.
I have heard before about this proper bullet to avoid arrest, but in lots of searching I have never found a case where it came into play.
Thankfully I live in a state that recognizes my right to protect myself, my family, and my property. The KY Constitution even says that a Kentuckian does not have to retreat, run, or back up from anyone. We can stand our ground and defend it.
 I would like to know why some of you seem to think it is "political" that the military chose the 223 and 9mm. No these weapons are not equal to the 30-06 and 45, but I have seen what they can do.

[twodollarpistol]

 I would like to know why some of you seem to think it is "political" that the military chose the 223 and 9mm. No these weapons are not equal to the 30-06 and 45, but I have seen what they can do.

Please see my previous post where I cited Col. Jeff Cooper. He retired from a life long career in the Marine Corp's His experiences in actual combat is extensive. He has seen first hand on many occasions exactly how effective the .223 and 9mm are and his opinion of them is not very good. Thats good enough for me, but results may vary :wink:

[DEPUTY]

yes well the col as well reguarded as he i can tell you this any ball ammo is about innefective! the 223 and 9mm loaded with a good bullet pushed at good sppeds will kill rather quickly!  we are talking here distance of house and rooms! not 200-300yds a 223! a 9mm 124stx at 1300fps is quite an effective bullet! remember past is past although a 06 and 45 are still good  hell i carry the 45 quite a bit and a 9mm all most equal time they both will work shot placment is key!

[GhostHunter]

Which gun should you grab first? ..... Better grab all of them you can before Kerry gets elected!!!!  You won't see them long after that!!!

BUY THEM CHEAP, BURY THEM DEEP!!!

[gwhilikerz]

twodollarpistol when did Cooper retire from the military?

[twodollarpistol]

twodollarpistol when did Cooper retire from the military?

You know, that is a good question. I really dont have the answer right now but I will research it and see what I can come up with. I have access to some of his books and most of his mag articles. I do know, however, that he was a combat veteran of both WW 2 and Korea. And he founded the Gunsite facility in 1977. Pretty creditable fellow.

[DEPUTY]

had to have been in the 60's! started the formal gunsite in 76-77 as american pistol instute! things change in ammo! principal is same basic tactics but ammo has changed!

[twodollarpistol]

had to have been in the 60's! started the formal gunsite in 76-77 as american pistol instute! things change in ammo! principal is same basic tactics but ammo has changed!

Have to agree with that. While I am a fan of the 12 ga I am not bashing the .223 or the weapons that chamber them. As I said I do have one myself and I have never felt unarmed when I have it. Its just not MY personal choice for the first one I would grab. Guess Im just old fashioned and there is something about that big ole' hole in the end of my shotgun I like.
 As far as Cooper is concerned, I just admire the man. Everybody has heroes and he is one of mine. I consider him a real man and his credentials are outstanding in my opinion.

[gwhilikerz]

twodollarpistol I agree with you about Cooper. He is a hero in my opinion. And I agree with you about the shotgun being my first choice.  I know Cooper has a low opinion of the 223 and 9mm but we have to look at where he comes from to see why he has that opinion. When he was in the military they were using 30-06 and 45 acp. Those weapons served him well and he has trust in them. Then along came the smaller lighter military caliber and like many older vets he didn't like the idea of giving up the old trustworthy weapons. Nothing wrong with that. I would much prefer either a 45 or 30-06 to protect my life. But I think his opinion of the lighter calibers is just that, opinion. Like them or not, they work. If they didn't we would have gone to something else for our military. The 9mm and 223 are both easier and faster to learn to shoot well with.   I like the bigger hole of bigger calibers also.  But these are just opinions we all have, yours, mine, Cooper's. I would bet that even with all his excellent work at gunsite that Cooper has never shot anyone with either the 223 or 9mm.

[twodollarpistol]

You make a good point. The things that I eluded to from Cooper were only meant to show his opinion, and that is assuredly all it is, just opinion. I cannot speak for his personal experiences or the reasons for his stand on anything, but I do enjoy his writings and find many nuggets of wisdom in them.

[jeager106]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, goodie! Controversy.
I LOVE IT!
Grab the shorty 870 with BIRDSHOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And yes I CAN back that up!
Listen up.
All defensive scenarios are SITUATIONAL.
If we are talking about saving yer arse in yer house with your family nearby you want something decisive.
In your HOME, where defensive distances are 25 FEET and closer then the 12 bore with birdshot is an awesome stopper.
If you have innocent people in the next room you sure don't want overpenetration knocking off your granny, your child, your mother-in-law....o.k. THAT was a stretch, but you get the point.
I would be very careful to my choice of shot size. # 8 is puny, 4's, 5's ain't none too bad.
Who's the idjit that said #8 shot won't penetrate a leather coat at 10 feet?
BullS%^T!!!!
I like #4 buck for inside the building distances also. Again it depends on the situation and what you are doing.
I carried an 870 14" with 2 3/4" Federal #4 buck for drug raids where I was #1 inside the door.
Let's face facts fellas. When your busting a door on a crack house I'll take #1 point man any day.
The 2nd guy in usually gets shot. :grin:
I saw a nasty dude take a hit at a measured 42 yards from a 12 bore modified choke Remington #4 shot 1.25 oz, 2 3/4" shell and he WAS wearing a leather coat.
The nasty was in real bad shape. He was hit in the left side from his ears to his arse and the #4's penetrated the leather coat quite nicely thank you very much. Pellets were in his left lung, guts, neck (artery don'cha'know) and face. The # 4's broke his cheek bones.
I've seen lots and lots of gunshot wounds, from .25 acp to shotgun slugs and in between.
I've seen people die instantly from one hit from the mouse round .25acp and watched people walk away with a 1.25 oz. load of 5's CONTACT wound to the guts. And that one was a 90 pound 15 year old boy!
Yeh, a contact wound to the guts from a 12 bore and he WALKED a half mile for help.
And if anyone wants to argue (in the scientific sense) with me..allow me to introduce myself.
lieutenant of Police, in charge of Deadly Force training, felony squad, drug team raid leader, S.W.A.T. Commander, 22 years service, 10 years as an investigator, 3 of those 10 as Chief of Detectives, injured 13 times and disabled with my 2nd broken back!
I've met, befriended and put on THREE training seminars with Massad Ayoob and did sniper training with Carlos Hathcock a few years before his untimely death.
I've seen more gunshot victims than most military combat vets.
I'm a certified instructor in subgun, assault rifle, shotgun, revolver, semi-auto pistol, 40MM grenade launcher, and sniper rifle.
Then there are my intructors certificates in courtroom survival and defensive tactics with lethal and less than lethal weapons.
Anyone want to put up an arguement?
Please do.

[DEPUTY]

then you would know that mas would recomend the 223. sorry the 12 has more penetration thant the 223 but then again i guess the top leading forensic guys in the kn ow like dr gary roberts(since your in know i gather you know him and his work. and i was that idiot!  i have tested it and put it on video to show my dept! thank you!  i will alway  your own statement shows that the 12 is  less than  good weapon(CONTACT wound to the guts. And that one was a 90 pound 15 year old boy!
Yeh, a contact wound to the guts from a 12 bore and he WALKED a half mile for help. ) better check your facts again lt! sound like the 12 sucks to mee glad i carry a m-4 through the door

[jeager106]

Mass is a fine man and an recognized "expert" world wide and testifies for police in contested shooting (argen't they all contested these days?)
Many don't know that Mass trained the South African Police.
He's quite a guy but with almost NO police experience!!!!!!!!
He gets his information from US!
He is a master at putting on a really fine dog and pony show. I know 'cause I've put on 3 with him.
He knows what he's speaking about, no doubt about it, but he's a showman none the less. That's how he makes his living.
Oh, and by the way I used the term "idjit" NOT idiot.
"Idjit" is a colloquialism, a comic term, not a derogatory term.
As for the 15 year old that took a 1 1/4 oz contact wound to the guts. He nearly died but for the efforts of some really good doctors. He has one forth of his guts left and the damage was gruesome indeed.
And you should know that gunshot wounds to the guts are never likely to instantly incapacitate.
I've seen guys literally gutted in knife fights go on to beat the snot out of the 'other guy'.
A .223 soft point would not have caused that much tissue damage.
The kid was very lucky indeed that the chewed up gut matter plugged the bleeding or he would have died.
I've seen people die from much smaller wounds that hit vital areas.
When I was doing rapid entries I carried an MP-5 but prefered the shorty 870.
Sounds like your a copper of some sort.
Then you should know this isn't a perfect world and things that look good on paper or on the shooting range don't always work the same way in the real world.
There are ONLY three ways to instantly stop agressive behavior from a human.
1) Disrupt the central nervous system.
2) Cause a sudden dramatic drop in blood pressure.
3) Destroy the body's support system, i.e. large bones of the legs or the pelvis.
Number's one and two will likely cause death, # three will cause the target to fall down thus buying a bit of time to figure out something else to do.

[DEPUTY]

Mas, is a man like all others! i have shot with him and against him at second chance, he loves his rolling rock beer!  as far as south africa!  i have a few friends who are current bodyguards from the old south african police  and speical defense forces! hell i have trained with some of the best in the world and belive me mas is a good civilian trainer and police but there are much better! i carry horandy tap in a 55 grain loading  and it has a some very devastaing  effects on bad guys! allows me more accurate fire and faster follow ups! all though i carried a 870 entry gun and benelli 14 inch for some time. i never ever wanted to carry a 7 pound 9mm handgun(mp5) yes copper only 13 yrs. have a list almost as long of yours in schools and traininig and instructing. yes i know al those facts as well about stopping! there are no absoultes in our line of work unless the head is 3 feet from the body

[Beekeeper]

This is an interesting, but important topic. Any of the mentioned guns could possibly stop a threatening person. A good watch dog can really come in handy in alerting you to a possible problem. In a house with a wife and children the 12gauge with birdshot would help to minimize over penetration. I personally know two people who were killed in the last five years. One was family friend shot and killed by another squirrel hunter with #6 birdshot. The second was another family friend killed a year ago in a shootout during a home invasion. He was using a .38 and one of the 4 intruders had a 20gauge shotgun with #7.5 shot and fired off 5 shells. I will say the shots he took from the shotgun didn't kill him, but the 4 attackers took his gun, beat him, and then shot him in the head with his .38 revolver. Obviously the shotgun didn't kill him, but it stopped him from being able to fight back. The other intruders in this case were armed with handguns, but there was no evidence at the scene that they had discharged their guns as they had broke in on the opposite side of the house. I will say that after what happened in both of those cases I would not want to take a hit from a shotgun no matter what it was loaded with.
Zach

[jeager106]

deputy.
You are absolutely right. Every situation is different.
I really like the MP-5, but, like you, felt it was a nine pound 9mm pistol, however it's ability to place mutiple rounds into a traget effectively is why the 9mm in a subgun is far superior to a 9mm handgun.
You can control the MP-5 and I prefered the thing set on " 3 round burst".
You could tatoo the K-5 at 50 yards easy.
However I liked the 14" shorty 870 best of all.
( by the way, I'm impressed with your training!  :-) )
When I was finally disabled my carry gun was the 4506 Smith, but to tell the truth I never felt unarmed with my M-19 wheelgun and Federal 125 mag h.p.'s.
Just fer grins 'n giggles here's another birdshot story fer ya.
Friend of mine was squirrel hunting alone. He wore a black chin beard and camo clothing. he was leaning against a Beech tree with is .22 in the crook of his arm as he 'squacked' on a squirrel call.
Bad mistake!
A pair of squireel hunters were stalking HIM!
All the one guy saw was what looked like a black squirrel tail 6 feet up the side of a beech tree.
Well the nimrod D*&khead took aim at the 'tail' and lest loose with 1.25oz of 6's from a 12 gauge.
Fortunately my friends head and face were behind the tree, but his one knee and both hands weren't.
He took quite a few 6's in the hands and knee.
He was down and completely helpless as four knuckles of BOTH hands were pulverized! His knee was splintered so he couldn't stand.
Thank God these two idjits didn't finish my friend off and just disappear.
One went for help while the other controled the bleeding as best he could.
My friend was a full year in rehab and to this day has limited use of his fingers.
And YES he sued the arse off the shooter and won a sizable settlement.
But just think
What if the shooter had been a bad dude and just killed my alone and helpless friend.
Another unsolved murder what? :evil:

[DEPUTY]

mp-5 is a good weapon  i like  the navy group we had on ours i really liked the m-4 alway have i got really turrned off by the 9mm subguns after i showed up to an urban rifle class and the ins clint smith told me a 9mm is not a urban rifle! lol