Author Topic: 7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?  (Read 2143 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Big Blue

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« on: August 23, 2004, 01:54:44 PM »
I'm looking to reload ammo for my two Russian Mosin Nagant rifles. I believe the Russian ammo was designated 7.62 X 54R, but I'm not really sure, nor do I think it makes a big difference. I was wondering about the availability of reloadable ammo for these. The cost of reloadable brass is very steep, Cabelas has the Norma brass for $41.99.  Also my Hodgdon manual lists this cartridge as using .308 bullets, but I've read of others using the .303/.311" bullets, which should I use? I'd like to try using these for deer hunting, with jacketed soft point bullets.
Don

Offline Rick Teal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 676
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2004, 02:38:25 PM »
Those are two separate designations for the same cartridge.

The "spec" on this cartridge translates into English measure at about .3108.  Most bores actually measure over .311, however, there has been the odd one slugged as small as .309.  I'd try .311 bullets if I were you, and if they don't shoot well, then go up or down in diameter and see if that helps.

The reason a .311 bore is designated as a 7.62 is that the Soviets tended to cut their rifling a little deeper than is the norm in western Europe or the Americas.
Hunting is Exciting!  Bolt actions are BORING!!
Don't mix the two!

Offline Big Blue

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2004, 03:26:12 PM »
Rick,
  Thanks! I just finished slugging the two barrels, one is .311", and the other .310", so your .311" bullet selection should be right on the money for both. With my Hodgdon manual listing this cailber as using .308 bullets, where can I find loading data using the .311" bullets? Or would this .308" listing work with the .311" bullets?
Don

Offline Val

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 846
7.62X54
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2004, 04:05:14 PM »
Grafs has good brass at a much cheaper cost than Cabelas:
http://www.grafs.com/

The Lyman 48th Edition and the Hornady manual have reload data for the 7.62X54R.
Hunting and fishing are not matters of life or death. They are much more important than that.

Offline kjeff50cal

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
both
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2004, 04:20:43 PM »
To answer your topic question...... Both.... As to the reloading data I would suggest using the loading data for the .308 bullets, but as always start with the lightest loads first and work from there. Reloading for the Mosin Nagant family these days is actually more expensive than shooting the millions (and I mean millions) of surplus ammo. They are of couse corrosive but with careful cleaning with S & W (soap & water) or Windex followed by your favorite bore cleaner/gun oil should do well. I bought 440 rounds of Hungarian Yellow Tip (180 grain) FMJ for $34. Hunting ammo range from Yugoslav (180 grn, reloadable) around $7.00 to Norma, $35.00 (they are real proud of their ammo huh) iwth Wolf, Winchester (Sellier & Bellot) and Barnaul.
Ignorance leads us into the darkness, Knowlege leads us out.

Offline Big Blue

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2004, 04:21:19 PM »
Val,
  Thanks for the link to Grafs, they sell their own brass for this caliber, at $27.99 per 100! That's one heck of a savings over the Norma brass from Cabellas.
Don

Offline Mikey

  • GBO Supporter
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8734
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2004, 02:45:55 AM »
Big Blue:  the Russian round is designated 7.62x54R - it is a rimmed case that normally fires a .311 diameter bullet.

There is a 7.65x53 caliber - it is the 7.65 Argentine round.  It too fires a .311 diameter bullet but the case is rimless and the two are not interchangeable.

For reloadable ammo try Sellier and Bellot.  It is the most consistent and accurate in that caliber that I have tried.  It comes with a 200 gn bullet and the brass is reloadable.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline 1911crazy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4793
  • Gender: Male
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2004, 03:39:09 AM »
I read on another forum that some have had problems with the brass from grafs I just got done reloading some of the Sellier & Bellot brass with no problems at all with it.                               BigBill

I would check at Midway USA too I think that winchester is suppose to have brass in 7.62x54 soon too it maybe more affordable too.  Thats what i'm waiting for because i can never be too frugal.  There are decapping tools for reloading berdan primed cases too and you can buy berdan primers too.  We do have a few choices.  I just purchased the 7.62x54 LEE dies from midway but i haven't  gone any further yet with them i've been too busy reloading 3k of 308win. first.

Offline Robert357

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 410
my two cents
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2004, 12:37:36 PM »
Good question!!!!!

I do a fair amount of reloading for a Russian 7.62x54R MN1891/30 rifle.

7.62x54R and 7.62x53 R are the same.  The Russians and most of the rest of the world calls it 7.62x54R, the Fins for some reason view it as 7.62x53R.  Of course the Fins don't think that an 8mm Mauser should be called 8mm they call it a 7.xx mm.  They seem to have a thing for their own measurement system.  

I have reloaded Century Hot Shot, Graf & Sons, and Winchester Metric 7.62x54 R brass.  I like the Winchester Metric best, but the Graf & Sons is fine brass and shoots very well.

Now to add more confusion, most of the surplus Russian rifles are designed to use .310 (not .308) diameter bullets.  However, since most of the milsurp Russian rifles saw decades of heavy use, they tend to work best with either .311 or .312 diameter bullets.  Typically these bullets are advertized as British .303 bullets or Japanese 7.7 mm bullets.  (Go figure?)

There are a few bullet manufactures that make .310 bullets in heavy 147 to 180 grain bullets.  There is also one manufacturer that makes a .3105 match bullet.  

From what I have read, a few Finish MN's had some .308 barrels and there were some US made rifles made prior to WW1 that had .308 barrels and were designed for use with 7.62x54 R ammo.  To further complicate reloading, if you buy a set of Lee 7.62x54R reloading dies, they will give you a neck expander built into the sizing/deprimer die that is just a .308 diameter gizmo.  That can create lots of headaches when you try to load .310 or .311 bullets.  As such you will either need to grab the neck expander from a .303 die or a 7.62x39 die to do your MN reloading.

Of course if you start loading cast bullets for your mil-surp Russian rifle, you probably want to use a Lee .313 sizing die and either .313 or .314 cast lead bullets.  But hey, they never said that life would make sense.

Offline Big Blue

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2004, 02:49:56 PM »
From what I understand, if you request an expander for .310" bullets, Lee will ship you one free of charge. I also believe that the Winchester ammo, is made for them by Sellier aand Bellot. The Graf brass seems like a good deal, but I've heard the quality can be questionable and if so, how good a deal is it? Not much. I have heard some say that the primer pockets on the Sellier and Bellot ammo aren't consistant, but if I checked it thoroughly before using it, it's probably my best bet. I just missed the big Harrisburg PA. gun show, I was on vacation and didn't get home on time. I'll have to check for the next area gun show and see what I can scrounge there.
Don

Offline 1911crazy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4793
  • Gender: Male
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2004, 03:21:11 PM »
Quote from: Big Blue
From what I understand, if you request an expander for .310" bullets, Lee will ship you one free of charge. I also believe that the Winchester ammo, is made for them by Sellier aand Bellot. The Graf brass seems like a good deal, but I've heard the quality can be questionable and if so, how good a deal is it? Not much. I have heard some say that the primer pockets on the Sellier and Bellot ammo aren't consistant, but if I checked it thoroughly before using it, it's probably my best bet. I just missed the big Harrisburg PA. gun show, I was on vacation and didn't get home on time. I'll have to check for the next area gun show and see what I can scrounge there.
Don


A primer pocket is a primer pocket and i just reloaded sellier & bellot in 6.5 swede with no primer problems at all.  The winchester metric ammo is sellier & bellot ammo in a winchester box you know the saying if you can compete with them do a joint venture it seems to be the american way as our ecomony falls apart anyway. But thats another story I'm waiting for the winchester cases.                                                 BigBill

The european/metric saying is 7.92mm or 8x57 thats 8mm ammo.

Offline Val

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 846
Graf 7.62X54 brass
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2004, 04:11:49 PM »
I use the Graf brass for reloading for my three Mosin Nagants and find the brass is excellent. I reload for 11 different calibers and this brass is as good as the Winchester, Remington or Federal brass.
Hunting and fishing are not matters of life or death. They are much more important than that.

Offline Big Blue

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2004, 05:06:17 PM »
The complaint I heard from several sources, about the S&B brass, was shallow primer pockets in the past. Hopefully they have addressed, and corrected that problem. I believe the Grafs 7.62x54R brass is made by Prvi Partizan from Serbia. Some have told me that the brass varies from batch to batch as far as the length goes. Most reports I have heard say it's a great product.
Don

Offline TonyCH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 3
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2004, 07:00:04 AM »
> The Russians and most of the rest of the world calls it 7.62x54R, the Fins for some reason view it as 7.62x53R. Of course the Fins don't think ..clip... They seem to have a thing for their own measurement system.

Oookay, we use the metric system... The russians didn't call it 7.62 anything originally. Why? Because they didn't use metric system back in 1800's so millimeters were not an issue. We Finns call it 53R because the brass is a bit over 53mm long. Other Europeans call it 54R because in the old days in Europe there was another (obsolete for many decades now) caliber called 53R. This other caliber never surfaced in Finland so we don't care about it - neither does anybody else for that matter.

Regards, Tony

Offline DPRinks

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 166
7.62x54R
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2004, 02:55:44 PM »
I use the Graf brass and have no problems with it, my Hungarian M44 has a .304-.314 barrel, .308's were all over the paper, .311's helped some, but .314's are giving 2" at 100yd results, this is using a 160gr cast gas check BHN 20 or better at 2000+ fps.
I recently measured the depth of primer pockets on several calibers and found from .119 to .136 depth on cases that were supposed to be for LRP's, several brands were tried and there were differences in the same brand on cases that should have been the same, example, .30-30 Win. and .32sp Win. cases did not have the same depth, one .126 and the other .128.
The primer depth is supposed to be .130 for LRP and .120 For LPP primers.
Don
D. Rinks

Offline kevin.303

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1098
  • Gender: Male
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2004, 02:24:23 PM »
as far as available bullet weights the guy that runs www.303british.com has started making and selling jacketed 200 gr .311" bullets. woodleigh bullets out of australia makes a 215 gr and i think they are available in the states.
" oh we didn't sink the bismarck, and we didn't fight at all, we spent our time in Norfolk and we really had a ball. chasing after women while our ship was overhauled, living it up on grapefruit juice and sick bay alcohol"

Offline Reed1911

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (18)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1332
    • www.reedsammo.com
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2004, 09:43:24 AM »
We have New 7.62x54R Winchester brass available. It's not S&B brass, it's quite a bit thicker, so Win must have either tooled up to make it, or found another maker. It's already primed. We only have about 10,000 pieces available so if you want it get it quick. Cost is 30.00/100 S/H will depend on how much you order. I can ship 100 pieces for 3.85, from there we'll ship it the least expensive way possible.
Ron Reed
Reed's Ammunition & Research
info@reedsammo.com
www.reedsammo.com

Offline Robert357

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 410
I guess so!
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2004, 12:29:26 PM »
Quote from: Reed1911
We have New 7.62x54R Winchester brass available....... so if you want it get it quick. Cost is 30.00/100 S/H will depend on how much you order. I can ship 100 pieces for 3.85, from there we'll ship it the least expensive way possible.

I guess the laws of supply and demand must be working as the website lists it at $31/ per 100.

Seriously, I prefer the Winchester Metric 7.62x54 R brass.

Thanks for the heads up

Offline Reed1911

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (18)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1332
    • www.reedsammo.com
7.62 X 54R or 7.62 X 53R?
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2004, 01:39:29 PM »
The 30.00 is the cost to you GB members. We try to offer deals when we can to those who support what we do.
Ron Reed
Reed's Ammunition & Research
info@reedsammo.com
www.reedsammo.com