Need .45-70 Advice

[Dan Chamberlain]

I have a mold that throws a nice 305 grain .458 bullet hard cast.  I'm shooting a number of guns in .45-70 but I'm trying to come up with a nice comfortable load for the Thompson Contender.  None of my reloading manuals address light cast bullets, only 405 grain and heavier.  Any advice for this bullet and the Contender?  I'm looking for 1400 to 1500 fps.

Dan C

[ButlerFord45]

Dan, if it were me, I'd give the powder manufacturer of my preference a query for suggested loads via email.
Generally, they seem to be pretty responsive, especially about unpublished combinations.

[Dan Chamberlain]

IMR only lists two loads, jacketed and jacketed.  But I'll take your advice and try.  More than likely, they will demur because they have no control over the bullet making process.  

Dan C

[Larry Gibson]

Dan Chamberlain

"]I have a mold that throws a nice 305 grain .458 bullet hard cast.  I'm shooting a number of guns in .45-70 but I'm trying to come up with a nice comfortable load for the Thompson Contender.  None of my reloading manuals address light cast bullets, only 405 grain and heavier.  Any advice for this bullet and the Contender?  I'm looking for 1400 to 1500 fps."

I shoot a 275 gr cast bullet over 8 gr of Bullseye in numerous 45-70s.  Velocity is around 1050 fps out of rifles.  I shoot litteralyy gobs of these, great fun and quite accurate.  Suggest you try 7-8 gr in your TC.  If you really want in the 1300-1400 fps try 12.5 to 14.5 gr of Unique.

Larry Gibson

[Dan Chamberlain]

Thanks Larry.  I used to serve with a security policeman at Lowry AFB in 1980 who was named Larry Gibson.  He was a short little stinker...but he had guts!  He was a little crazy though and you had to watch that he didn't lay waste to the whole bar during a fight!

Dan c

[jhalcott]

Dan,first things first! Recoil can be fierce in the 45-70 contender. Lyman's 47th edition ,page 354/355 shows a 293 cast plain base ,and a 457122HP@ 322 grains (This is supposed to be very accurate in the 45-70)
  293 loads
SR 4759, 26 gr=1311fps-----30 gr=1602fps
IMR4198,28.5 gr=1327fps*----34.5 gr=1613fps*
IMR3031,34gr=1269 fps*------44 gr=1577 fps*
   322 loads
SR4759,19gr=1043fps*------25 gr=1412fps*
IMR4198,23gr=1088fps*-----32gr=1480fps*
RX7,47gr=1687fps*--------51gr=1813fps
IMR3031,29gr=1056fps*----37gr=1435fps*
  The * denotes the use of a 1/2 grain polyester fiber wad(filler)~5/8"squarex1/4" thick over the powder.
These are 1873springfield trapdoor rifle loads.

[Dan Chamberlain]

jhalcott;

Thanks for the info.  I knew I'd find the info here.  I'm wondering about the filler however.  If I understand the term, it means the polyester is being used to take up space in the case and not to protect the base of the cast bullet, correct?  I'm wondering why the fillet wad would be 5/8" "square" rather than say, round?  Any ideas?  And this will offer the resistance necessary to hold the powder back against the primer without moving?  I've never had to use a filler before with my rifle rounds.

My current Contender load with a 300 grain Jacketed hollow point is 36 grains of IMR4198 and recoil is substantial but not painful.  My chrono says it's averaging a fairly consistent 1450fps.  There is no mention in the Hornady manual of using a filler for this load even though 36 grains isn't a case filler by any stretch.  

Dan C

[jhalcott]

It is MUCH easier to cut squares than little circles! :grin:  Your load of 36/4198 is 4 grains less then those listed in my T/C book. They start at 40grains.
   The filler keeps the powder close to the primer for more consistent ignition.Which gives better accuracy and velocity results. Even the old cereal type fillers were meant to do this ,not to protect the bullet base.
 I have never had a powder charge move in  a case with a poly filler,NOT saying it can't happen.I just do not drop my ammo in a pocket and toss it around. I keep it in a wallet designed to hold ammo on a belt,OR in a shell holder that fits on the stock.  When you put the poly wad on top of the powder,push it in with the eraser end of a pencil.Gently tamp it down so it is against the powder. You are NOT pounding gravel here! You just want to be sure the wad covers the entire top of the powder column,or it may trickle out to the front of the case. HTH, :wink:  jh

[Lloyd Smale]

a load that works for me is 10 grains of unique ive never fooled with fillers though.

[Leftoverdj]

There is some risk to the use of fillers and enormous debate about how to use them. The wad against the powder method makes me nervous and so does the amount that some people use. There is too much risk that the wad will act as a secondary projectile and the bullet as a bore obstruction.

When I use fillers, it's generally loose dacron and never more than one grain in weight, usually a half grain. Weigh the first few and you can do the rest by eye. It's easy enough to stay within a tenth of a grain by eye.

I catch the leading edge of the cluster with a small screwdriver and draw the rest of the mass into the case. The idea is to fill the space with a loose net of fibers. Loaded shells go into a cartridge box base down.

I've done it for years on light loads, find it helps, but I don't do it in my high dollar guns. If I ever ring a barrel, I want it to be a barrel I can readily and cheaply replace.

[stuffit]

DJ,
If you would, please address the dynamics of whatever possible danger these fillers might be, especially in regard to damaging a barrel.  I'm not taking issue with your stance on this, but just don't understand how it might happen.  I have used them (kapok) with my .454 Casull in the past in working up light loads with wadcutters and powders like 700X, with good accuracy and no apparent adverse effect other than a shower of wad material in front of my shooting bench.  

I too have been puzzled over their mention without explanation in the Lyman cast bullet Handbook recommendations for the .45-70, their purpose and use there not being discussed in detail at all;  at least not enough to enlighten this tired old brain.  Any info or sources you can provide on this would be much appreciated.

 
stuffit

[Dan Chamberlain]

I just received the lates Lyman manual and fillers are not mentioned in the load data for the .45-70 cast lead loads.  Could it be they changed their minds?

Dan C

[stuffit]

It is true that the Lyman 48th edition Reloading Handbook makes no mention of the filler wads in the data on the .45-70.  However, if you read carefully, you'll find that the loads they list are either different powders or different weights of powders from the loads in which the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd edition recommends the 1/2gr Dacron wad.  It's also true that the former had its first printing in Dec 2002 and the latter had its first printing in April 1980 (most recent printing - March 2002).  So the enigma (for me anyway) remains.  I'd like to know more of the thinking that went into the initial recommendations.
Best Regards,
stuffit

[Brian T]

Start with about 20 grains of AA 5744 and work up till you have as much recoil as you can handle

[Leftoverdj]

Use of fillers can ring chambers.  There is much debate about how it happens and whether fiber filler can be used in a manner that precludes the possibility of ringing, but there is no disputing that it has happened. There have been too many ringed chambers to doubt it.

Confusing the issue is the fact that the phenomenon is uncommon, and there are a good many reloaders (me among them) who have fired thousands of rounds using fillers without incident. Naturally a good many of these feel that their lack of problem is proof that their method is safe. At least they feel that way until they ring a chamber.

One of the many theories holds that a wad of fiber against the powder can act as a secondary projectile, gaining a very high velocity before it impacts against a stationary bullet and then expands laterally ringing the chamber. Others suggest that dacron and polyester melt and a liguid impacts against the bullet base. If you hit the reloading boards and search on filler ringing, you will find hundreds of opinions, but mighty little hard fact.

Me, I don't worry about most of this. Fillers give me better accuracy and do not pose a threat to my safety. At most, I'll ruin a barrel someday and have to replace it. I've ruined several barrels in my time by shooting them until they flat wore out and figger that replacing a barrel once in a while is a part of the natural order of things. At the same time,  I do not tempt fate by shooting loads with fillers in guns that have barrels that that cannot be replaced or would be very expensive to replace.

[Ric]

While sort of new here, I have been shooting cast bullets with wads for many years, all without problems. This thread on wads and ringing barrels has my interest so, I would like your opinions on my method for doing this. Calibers are; 38-55, 40-65, 40-82, 45-90 and 45-70

1. all loads use cast bullets of pure lead with a pinch of tin.
2. aa-5744 is my only powder now, before its manufacturer I used Unique
3. velocity is seldom over 1465 fps

Wad material is plain toilet paper and used in such a fashion that no air space exists between powder and bullet base. Enough paper is used to allow the bullet to push the paper back when seated, making the solid fit without air space as best it can. Can't say how many bullets have been fired using this technique however, it must be in the several thousand by now. to date, I have not ruined one barrel and accuracy is always better using toilet paper as the filler.
Note: have never used a wad made of flat material that creates air space of any kind nor have I used the creme o' wheat method or kapok, only TP.

Thanks for your responses and opinions.

Ric