Author Topic: Traditional style slug gun (Read 1818 times)

zrifleman · « **on:** August 14, 2004, 09:24:15 PM »

How many of you have read the Ned Roberts book " The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle" and wished you could have a target rifle or slug gun like the ones pictured in the book? I first read the book over 25 yrs ago. Recently I decided to build a hunting/target rifle that would shoot slugs instead of a round balls. I cannabalized a .58 cal. Navy Arms Hawken Hunter. I bought a Green Mountain barrel--40 cal. 1-16 twist, 1 1/8" across the flats along with a Hawken style breech and tang, under rib, and hickory rod with thimbles. Right now I am in the process of putting it back together. To get bullets for it, I am going to size paperpatch bullets down on my lubrisizer so they can be started with a bullet starter. If anyone is interested---I will give an update. The same project could be done with a T C Hawken or many other traditional guns.

crow_feather · « **Reply #1 on:** August 15, 2004, 04:59:44 AM »

It would be interesting to learn about. Please post your progress and results. Best of luck with the project.

C F

Longcruise · « **Reply #2 on:** August 15, 2004, 10:00:56 AM »

Was the Navy arms gun a 1 1/8th barrel? I've looked at those fast twist .45 cal barrels and have hankered to build a sporting rifle in the mid to late 19th centurey style. Was thinking more along the lines of the 1" barrel though to keep the weight down a bit. Track has a set of plan drawings for an English sporting rifle that keeps calling to me!! :grin:

Please do keep us posted :grin:

zrifleman · « **Reply #3 on:** August 15, 2004, 09:19:10 PM »

Longcruise--in answer to your question the Navy Arms Hawken Hunter in .58 cal is 1 1/8" across the flats. I tried to get a .45 barrel from Green Mountain with 1-18 twist. It seems that they stopped making them for muzzle loaders. They left Pecatonica Rifle Works and Track of the Wolf high and dry. I called Dixie and they are out. My call to Green Mountain was never returned. So the next best thing was a .40 cal. Pecatonica has a kit to build a Rigby style rifle with a 1" barrel. That will be my next project in 45 cal 1-18 twist. A kit woud be easier than this project.

Longcruise · « **Reply #4 on:** August 16, 2004, 08:12:38 AM »

Quote

Pecatonica has a kit to build a Rigby style rifle with a 1" barrel. That will be my next project in 45 cal 1-18 twist. A kit woud be easier than this project

Thanks much for that lead! I'm going to look into the Pecatonica kit for sure. Apparently I'd be able to at least get the barrel from them. If the kit is not satisfactory, it can be a pieces parts gun as long as the barrel can be had.

BTW, there is an outfit called something like Oregon Rifle Barrel or something like that. They are said to do a barrel in whatever twist rate you desire. that's all I know about them at this point.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** August 16, 2004, 08:29:08 AM »

LC, maybe Orion Rifle Barrel Co?

Orion Rifle Barrel Co., RR2, 137 Cobler Village Road, Kalispell, MT 59901
(406) 257-5649

Longcruise · « **Reply #6 on:** August 16, 2004, 10:58:16 AM »

Quote

maybe Orion Rifle Barrel Co?

No, it's definetely Oregon something or other. I had heard that Orion was bought out by another company?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** August 16, 2004, 11:23:12 AM »

Picky, picky, picky! How bout the Oregon Barrel Co.! :grin:

Joe William's shop in Springfield. OR is a distributor of Oregon Barrels...Know him and his wife Suzie, great people! Picked up 25lb of Goex from him not long ago.

http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?SubCat1ID=9&Cat1Name=Barrels

Longcruise · « **Reply #8 on:** August 16, 2004, 12:25:51 PM »

Quick, that's it. They are the ones! :grin:

This might be a link straight to the 45 caliber page.

http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=498&do=detail&Cat2Option=yes

Thanks for finding that.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** August 16, 2004, 12:56:33 PM »

:grin: Always glad to help!

zrifleman · « **Reply #10 on:** August 16, 2004, 05:40:23 PM »

Longcruise--Joe at Oregon Barrel Co/The Gunworks wants about $175 and a several month wait. Pecatonica took about 2 weeks and the Green Mountain barrel cost about $110. Track of the Wolf lists the same barrel for $105. Get it while it is available.

Longcruise · « **Reply #11 on:** August 17, 2004, 04:09:35 AM »

I'm confused,

Quote

Pecatonica took about 2 weeks and the Green Mountain barrel cost about $110. Track of the Wolf lists the same barrel for $105. Get it while it is available.

Does this mean that TOW and Pecatonica still have some in stock even though GM has quit making them?

zrifleman · « **Reply #12 on:** August 17, 2004, 08:23:04 AM »

Longcruise-Yes they still have .38 cal and .40 cal in 1 1/8"--no .45 cal. You can still 1" .45 cal 1=18 twist from both of them. Check out Pecatonica's Rigby rifle kit---they will make it up with under rib and thimbles so you could make it a hunting rifle. Thats my next project. If you like traditional guns look a TOW Jim Bridger Hawken--I want to build one of them in .58 cal.

Longcruise · « **Reply #13 on:** August 17, 2004, 10:03:16 AM »

Quote

Check out Pecatonica's Rigby rifle kit---they will make it up with under rib and thimbles so you could make it a hunting rifle. Thats my next project. If you like traditional guns look a TOW Jim Bridger Hawken--I want to build one of them in .58 cal.

I looked at the Pecatonica kit. Looks nice. Probably the same components that TOW sells. Pecatonica has an odd way of selling their stocks :?

I have looked at the TOW Bridger kit but am more attracted to the early flint full stock Hawken. Won't start any new projects until after the last big game season though. Got a .54 half stock on the bench that I'd like to have ready for Elk opener on 9/11 but it'll be a push to do it.

The .45 Rigby would undoubtedly take almost any animal on the planet, but ironically is not legal for elk in my state :? If you run the ballistics on a .45 Rigby shooting a 450 or 500 grain slug it will outdo any of the in-line loads, IMO. A good barrel and proper bullet fit would probably beat it in the accuracy dept too!

zrifleman · « **Reply #14 on:** August 17, 2004, 08:24:49 PM »

I used to live in Colorado-hunted deer and antelope for three years. It's the only state that has the limit on the length of bullet. I hunt NY and Penn for whitetails. What idiot is going to look down the barrel to figure out the bullet length. Shoot it in the air and let them catch it. Sorry my feelings for the Colorado wildlife people still show at times. Sounds like you like the traditional rifles and like to build them. I built a Sharps 74 in 45-90 earlier this year. The Rigby kit looks like just the ticket to me. A 350 gr bullet is probably short enough to be legal and may shoot well.

Longcruise · « **Reply #15 on:** August 18, 2004, 06:20:10 AM »

Quote

Shoot it in the air and let them catch it. Sorry my feelings for the Colorado wildlife people still show at times. Sounds like you like the traditional rifles and like to build them. I built a Sharps 74 in 45-90 earlier this year. The Rigby kit looks like just the ticket to me. A 350 gr bullet is probably short enough to be legal and may shoot well.

I'm impressed that you built a cartridge rifle successfully

Many guys in my gun club are Scheutzen fanatics and quite a few of them build their own rifles. Always amazes me. I consider building an ML gun to be complicated enough for me :-)

Yeah, the bullet length thing is an oddball regulation for sure. I'm not sure what the intent was since the balance of the restrictions seem to leave it as a pointless rule. Even with the shorter bullet, the .45 would not be legal for elk since we must use a minimum of .50 for them. The .45 and shorter bullet would indeed be legal for all other big game here except moose and elk. OTOH, a .40 is legal for bear :eek: Go figger

KING · « **Reply #16 on:** August 18, 2004, 03:42:15 PM »

I cant wait to here your shooting results. Sadly,my Gibbs in .450 is still a virgin inna gun safe. Has yet to be shot and it is starting to get to me a little. It is supposed to shoot 70 of 4f Swiss with a .450 conical weighing in at 450 grns. I would like to shoot it sometime in my life instead of just look at it. Good luck with it and be sure to let us know...........................stay safe...............King

zrifleman · « **Reply #17 on:** September 14, 2004, 08:14:55 PM »

I got to shoot my traditional slug gun today. Along the way I made a slight detour. Dick at Pecatonica came up with a .45 cal 1-18 twist barrel that he had turned half round. Within a few days it was on my door step along with rib and rod thimbles and a breech plug installed, ready for me to finish and shoot. By the way I had finished the .40 cal barrel assembly but don't have any bullets for it yet. I took some .456" paper patch bullets, rolled them in resizing lube and ran them thru a .450 lubrisizer die. That makes it possible to thumb start them all the way in without a bullet starter. At the range I started with 500 gr bullets with 70 grs of Goex 2fg with an over powder wad at 50 yds. My first 5 shots tore a ragged hole 1" long up and down about 1 1/2" below my point of aim. My next 5 shots were the same powder charge with a 420 gr bullets. The bullet holes were dead-on my point of aim and the group was about 1 1/2". I forgot to mention that I used Wonder lube just prior to loading. A couple of shots at 100 yds were low but windage had not changed. To say the least-I'm excited about the results and can't wait to spend more range time to work on the load. I will try 80 grs next. With out doing anything the gun and load are accurate enough to go hunting tomorrow. I will keep you posted.

KING · « **Reply #18 on:** September 15, 2004, 04:11:28 PM »

:-D Iy Shoots!..................outstanding. Keep up the posting so we can know more Let us know when you are going to shoot a 200 yard target. Results should be very interesting..........stay safe.King

zrifleman · « **Reply #19 on:** September 18, 2004, 08:36:13 PM »

I got to make another quick trip to the range an do a litttle more fine tuning on my 45 cal slug gun. I upped the powder charge to 80 grs and put 4 in less than 1" at 50 yds. I also tried some of Buffalo Bullets conicals--a 325 gr hollow point. The groups were consistent--right over the point of aim--70 grs was a little better than 80 grs at 50 yds. They performed much better than I expected with such a fast twist. So far my 500 gr PP sized down to .450 seems the most consistant. Next is a practice session at 100 yds on a steel target--and some 200 yd shots. I now have .40 cal PP bullets made up for my .40 cal barrel set for this same gun. These thumb started PP bullets have far exceeded my expectations. I will let you know how the next session goes.

zrifleman · « **Reply #20 on:** September 22, 2004, 04:03:18 PM »

I finally got to try out my 40 cal slug barrel today. It has a 1-16 twist, so I chose a 400 gr paper patched bullet sized to .401". I started with 60 grs of Goex fffg. 1st shot was on the paper at 25 yds. With one adjustment I was in the 10 ring so I went to 50 yds. Without further adjustment all shots were in the 10 ring and stayed there for about 10 rds. At this point my groups opened up and I found that my rear sight base had broken. It seems to want to group 1/2" to 3/4" at 50 yds. I also fired some 500 gr PP bullets thru my 45 cal barrel at 50 yds. With open sights they consistently group around 1" at 50 yds. So far I would claim this experiment as a outstanding success. The real proof will be during deer season.

zrifleman · « **Reply #21 on:** September 28, 2004, 02:47:49 PM »

I tried something new today with my .45 cal slug gun. I cast up some pure lead bullets in an RCBS 500 gr mold--they weigh in at 530 grs. I ran them thru a lubrisizer .451 die and lubed them. They thumb start nicely down the barrel. With 80 grs of Goex 2fg 5 shots went 1 14" at 50 yds and a consistent 2" at 100 yds. No flyers or surprises-just strung up and down a little. I tried a couple of shots on a rock pile at 400 yds--windage never changed, getting the right elevation will be the trick. So far the rifle shoots about as good as any of my 45-70's with black powder. I picked up some of the plastic wads I put over the powder out at about 12 yds. They had a nice imprint of the base of the bullet on they. This means that even though the bullet is thumb started, breeech pressure is normal. One of the wads had a base from one of my PP 500 gr bullets with it. There was no sign of blowby on the paper. So far the PP bullet has a slight edge for accuracy.

zrifleman · « **Reply #22 on:** October 06, 2004, 07:32:51 PM »

Back to the range yesterday with another idea. I tried the same bullets and powder charge with no over-powder wad-just poured the charge and seated the bullets firmly on the powder--no tamping. I shot a 3/4" 5 shot group at 50 yds, just a nice big round hole (with open sights). At 100 yds I tried some 500 gr PP bullets sized down to .448" just pushed down on the powder. They were in a triangle just over 1". So--my conclusion is, flat based pure lead bullets, easy start and push firmly down on the powder, no wads, are the best so far. Next thing to try is Swiss powder in 1 1/2 fg or 2 fg.

dbm · « **Reply #23 on:** October 06, 2004, 08:13:53 PM »

Quote from: KING

Sadly,my Gibbs in .450 is still a virgin inna gun safe. Has yet to be shot and it is starting to get to me a little. It is supposed to shoot 70 of 4f Swiss with a .450 conical weighing in at 450 grns.

Are you sure you want to use 4F swiss in your Gibbs? Don't get confused the the European gradings. 70 of Swiss No.4 would be more like it.

Swiss No. 5 = 1F
Swiss No. 4 = 1.5F
Swiss No. 3 = 2F
Swiss No. 2 = 3F
Swiss No. 1 = 4F

I use 80 grains Swiss #4 with a 530 grain GG bullet at 100m. Out to 600yds 90 grains #4 and 535 grain PP bullet. To 1000 yards 95 grains #4 and occassioanl forays at 1100 and 1200 yds I upped the charge to 105 grains #4. I have also been using the same charges of the UK proof house powder, TPPH, to good effect.

Your 450 grain bullet sounds a bit light for long range work. Get the cobwebs out of he bore and go shoot it! :grin:

David

zrifleman · « **Reply #24 on:** October 07, 2004, 07:09:58 PM »

David thanks for the imput. At the range today a gentleman was expressing his frustration with a Pedersoli Whitworth replica that he could not get to group. He was shooting the cast bullets recommended--from the Pedersoli mold. They looked to be about 530 grs. His charge was only 65 grs of Goex 2fg. I gave him 10 500 grs PP bullets that were sized to .448", and recommended that he up the charge to 80 grs. A couple of hrs later he showed me his target---he had put all 10 shots in 1 hole slightly larger than a bullet hole. His target was only at 25 yds but there was no deviation. Like you said 80+ grs of 2fg powder. I think Swiss powder will be a further improvement. By the way some of our BP shooters confuse 4fg powder with 4fa powder. I believe 4fa powder may work well with the heavy bullets.

dbm · « **Reply #25 on:** October 07, 2004, 08:17:25 PM »

I presume this is the Mortimer Whitworth, not a Whitworth hex bored barrel.

To avoid any confusion this rifle is designed for the international 100m discipline. Events are run by the Muzzle Loaders Associations International Committee (MLAIC - www.mlaic.org) and last August the US hosted the World Championships at Batesville, Indiana. All MLAIC competitions are named - the 100m target rifle match is called the "Whitworth". This is where the Pedersoli Mortimer Whitworth derives its name - not from Joseph Whitworth hexagonally bored rifling being used.

David

zrifleman · « **Reply #26 on:** October 15, 2004, 01:03:31 PM »

I am fast approaching "D" day (deer hunting) middle of November in New York. I am still trying different bullets and powder charges. So far best accuracy has been with 500 gr flat based bullets sized to .448 seated tight on 80 grs of Goex ffg. I tried a 500gr swaged bullet that was about 10 brinell hardness over 80 grs of fffg Goex--It dropped on the ground about 10 ft in front of my 100 yd target. Apparently it was too hard to upset into the rifling and seal the bore. I haven't had good sucess with 420 gr bullets until today. I tried a flat based PP bullet sized to .448 over 80 grs of fffg. Accuracy was good at 50 yds and 100 yds with only about 6" of drop between 50 and 100yds. The faster powder and flat base bullet seem to be crucial for accuracy. If I have time I am going to try 90 grs of fffg. Every trip to the range draws ooh's and ah's over how accurate the rifle is. Has anyone else tried this kind of a project???