Remington 700 VS

[John Ceglarek]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and the sport.  I've got a question that I hope hasn't been asked too many times before.

I've heard lots of mention of folks starting out with a Remington 700 VS, which weighs about 9 lbs.  By the time you put a scope and rings on it, you're going to be over the 10 lbs 2 oz limit.  So what tricks do people use to get these rifles to come in under the weight limit?

Also, Remington makes a rifle they call the 700P LTR, which is basically a 700 VS with a 20" bbl instead of a 26" bbl.  This rifle only weighs 7.5 lbs, so it could be scoped without having to save weight.  Does anyone have any experience with this gun, good or bad?  My only concern might be that the shorter bbl would result in poor performance at the longer ranges.

Any/all comments are appreciated.

Thanks,  John

[Fivepigs]

I started out with a 700VS, but I never shot it in a sanctioned match where they weighed rifles, so I don't know if it would have made weight.  You could always flute the bbl, which would probably save about 10 oz.  I'd recommend that over the short, 20" bbl.  Isn't there a 26" model that comes fluted from the factory?  

I started out shooting silhouettes with my VS because I already had it.  It worked fine (the only thing I changed was the trigger -- I switched to a Jewel), but I'm not sure it's necessarily the rifle to buy if you're planning to use it specifically for silhouettes.  You might check around to see if you can find a used custom gun.  I'd avoid the 20" bbl.

[SteveAZ]

I've not done it myself but I know a few who have. If you wish to use the laminated stock rather than change to a fiberglass, you need to skeletonize it. Because it is laminated it is very strong. You can drill large holes under the recoil pad or cut a large section clear through the butt stock, leaving just the outline. (It looks as drastic as it sounds.) You can trim the forend. I think there is a limit to how short it can be. Cut the barrel to about 24" or less. It will need to be re-crowned. Cutting the barrel is the last thing to do. Each re-crowning costs money unless you have a lathe. Change the bolt shroud to one made from aluminum. (That saves one ounce.) Remove the safety lever. Use two piece scope bases. Use aluminum scope rings. Use a Leupold single power, not a variable scope. (4 ozs)

Weight the parts you will use as is, scope, bases, rings and the rifle with stock and action with the safety removed and the bolt shroud changed. Then you will know how much you need to remove from the stock and barrel.

The barrel will be pretty short to be used with a laminated stock. There are some other things to do that are less drastic.

Look for a used fiberglass stock. You will be VERY glad you did. You should be able to find one is useable shape for $100-150. The laminated stock is good but for this game, very heavy. The silhouette shooters will probably know where to find a fiberglass one. If you can't find one locally, drop me a line. I would probably part with one of mine. I don't know if you were looking at a fluted barrel, the weight savings is significant.

Hope this helped.

Steve

[John Ceglarek]

SteveAZ,

I guess what I was thinking of was buying a 700VS, and dropping it into a fiberglass stock.  I'm assuming here that the fiberglass stock will be lighter than the composite stock from the factory...do you think so, or not?  Also, what about the 20" bbl idea...is that too short, or would it be OK?  There's also the possibility of having the 26" bbl fluted.

Also, in looking at Leupold's site, I can't find any reference to a fixed power scope stronger than 12X.  Am I missing something?

Thanks again,

John

[SteveAZ]

Hi John, sounds like you're on the right track.  It's a good idea to replace the laminated stock with fiberglass. Much, much lighter.

The 20" barrel is very short. Maybe too short. I think you're right to be concerned.

You didn't say what caliber you were going to use. 260 Rem is the best factory caliber available by far. 7-08 is ok. Some people use 308 but it's a lot. I don't know the Remington catalog to know what versions of the 700 are available in 260 Rem.

I wouldn't flute a factory barrel. It'll cost $150-200 and possibly affect the barrel. A factory fluted barrel would save weight but you'd still have to cut it. A new barrel is not that much more, about $400 chambered, crowned and fitted. And you'd have you choice of caliber and it would be the right contour and twist.

The scope I was referring to is no longer made by Leupold. You can find them used different places. They will still have the Leupold guarantee. Talk to the shooters where you live or look on eBay or in the classifieds here. The BR or BR-D model in 24X. They made some before then that are ok too. They have turrets for windage and elevation.

Another possibility is to buy a remington 700 adl or bdl in 260 Rem and shoot it in the hunter class. Much less expensive, much less work, much faster track. Just slap on a scope, adjust the trigger and go. Then figure out what you want to do next.

If you are intent on building a standard rifle I might be able to direct you to a place to get one that is already built.

Hope this helps. If you have more questions I'd be glad to help.

Steve

[John Ceglarek]

Hi Steve,

Thanks again for the input.  Here are my thoughts at this point, after looking at several options again in light of your comments.

Remington only makes two guns with fluted factory bbls:  the VS SF in 223 Rem, 220 Swift, and 22-225 Swift (26" bbl) and the LV SF in 17 Rem, 204 Ruger, 221 Rem Fireball, 223 Rem, 22-250 Rem and 7mm-08 Rem (all with 22" bbls).  So of those guns only the LV SF in 7mm-08 is suitable.  But I don't want stainless, and I had sort of settled on 308 because I've already got dies, brass, etc.  And if fluting a factory bbl is a bad idea, then buying a suitable 308 and having it fluted is not an option either.  That leaves going to an aftermarket bbl, and if I've got to go that route it doesn't make sense (I don't think) to buy a finished rifle and then pay more $$ for an aftermarket bbl and stock.  That seems to leave me with buying a 700 action, an aftermarket bbl, a stock, and a good triogger and having someone build it up for me.  Does that make sense?  As to who would do that, I have no idea.  I've got a local gunshop in mind, but I don't know if they are capable of doing that type of work.  Are there established gunsmiths that do this type of work routinely that silhouette shooters use?

As to the hunter-class rifle, I've got that covered.  I've got a 700 BDL in 270 Win that I've already got loads worked up for.  All I need there is a different scope, and a maybe a better trigger.  But, my interpretation of "hunter" class is that it is supposed to be pretty much a stock factory rifle, so I'm not sure whether a new trigger is legal (but can you have someone lighten up your factory trigger, as opposed to replacing it?).

At any rate, what I'm looking to do is come up with a "standard" rifle...does what I've described above make sense, or am I missing something?  Any suggestions for stocks, gunsmiths, etc?  Or directions to a rifle that is already built, as you suggested?

Again thanks!

John

[nomad]

John,

If I may be excused for jumping in on the thread...

You really need to spend the couple of bucks they cost and buy a rule book from NRA. Might save you a LOT of money in the long run. Current rules for Hunting Rifle allow far more than you seem to have been told.

If you're determined to start at the top with a custom rig, your location would probably be an iimportant factor:

In the pacific northwest, Marvin Pearson (Metalhead on this forum) is building some of the best sil rifles going. Marvin's a silhouette shooter in addition to being a 'smith and knows the game. He mostly uses Nesika stocks and his metalwork is superb. He's in Chehalis, WA.
If you're anywhere around Texas, Mark Pharr in Round Rock is IMO the other top name silhouette 'smith. Mark is a high-level competitor (2nd Master in HP standard rifle and 3rd Master in HP hunter at this year's nationals) and has his own proprietary stock design that is slightly different from but (I 'think') made by the same outfit that makes the Nesikas that Marvin uses.

A call to either one might help you decide whether a standard rifle is needed -- or even desireable. (Under the 'new' rules, which are already 3 years or so old, a full-house custom hunter is basically a lightweight standard rifle with a 2 lb trigger and there's a lot to be said for the idea of shooting one gun in both events...especially for a beginner.)

There are certainly other excellent 'smiths but knowing that you're working with someone who shoots the game -- in addition to understanding which switch makes the lathe turn -- is sure comforting!

[John Ceglarek]

Nomad,

No problem jumping in...I want all the input I can get.  And it sounds like you're right about the rules.  I'll be ordering a book.

I also agree there is something to be said for only shooting one gun in both events, especially for a beginner.  I'm certainly not new to shooting, as I've been shooting highpower (service rifle) for years.  But I am new to this game.  I'm concerned about trying to "tweak" a hunter rifle to be similar to a standard rifle are that I have assumed the weight limit would preclude you from getting a heavy varmint-type bbl and a stock that is more suitable for offhand shooting than a standard "factory" stock.  And looking at Remington's on-line catalog seemed to verify my worries.  I'm certainly interested in hearing about what others have done starting with a stock factory rifle...that was one of the points I was driving at in my first post.

As to gunsmiths, I live in Michigan.  That doesn't mean I can't talk to either of the guys you mentioned, but I would hope there is someone closer to home.

Thanks for you input, and I'm interested in anything else you can share with me.

John

[nomad]

In terms of comb height, Hunter rules now allow stocks that wouldn't pass standard rifle certification. Personally, I think that the new stocks by Nesika/Pharr/Brown (which are legal in both classes) give up nothing to conventionsl standard stocks in terms of fit or 'shootability'.  (If we ever recognize that standard rifles are really target rifles and permit target stocks like the Anschutz aluminums -- which are legal now in Target and Open air rifle classes -- things will change...but I haven't seen that happen -- and haven't decided what my position will be if it does.)

You can see the stocks on Nesika's and Brown's sites, I don't think Mark has posted pics anywhere. IMO the Nesika is best if you shoot off your knuckles and the Pharr is better if you shoot split-finger or grasp with your non-firing hand. Pharr has changed the Nesika grip curvature and palm swell a bit and rounded the forearm bottom slightly. Other than that, the three are very similar.

With any of the very light stocks above, you can use a bbl that is decidedly heavy. You still need to make the 9 lb limit in hunter but you can hang a solid chunk of iron out front. One point of very minor controversy that I noted at Nats was that there seem to be 2 schools of thought evolving about rifle balance. (This is lightly touched on in the Shooting Sports coverage on Nats that will be out in the December(?) issue.) One says: "HEAVY at the front to provide maximum stability!" The other says: "FAIRLY heavy at the front but not so much that you start fighting the rifle toward the end of long matches and lose more than you gained."
Obviously, this is a matter of individual preference. From what I'm seeing, the left-coast guys tend toward the more severe muzzle weight and the rest are a bit more moderate. (Like that's something new? :-D )

If you're going to play the game seriously, you need a hunter-legal rifle. Trying to make do with a .270 is certainly possible -- but you're running uphill.

That said (and FWIW) unless you feel that your background in ATC will make you an early contender at the top -- and there's no question that it gives you a jump -- if you held me down and twisted my arm I'd say: "Bring your .270 to a season's matches. Put a good sil scope on it. Figure your first few matches are your 'dues' and 'education'. When you've got that experience behind you, build, buy or have built whatever you want...because, by then, you won't have to ask any of us what works for you!"  :wink:

One other thing to keep in mind is: If Steve can put you onto a really good deal, everything I've just suggested -- no matter whether you think it's good or bad advice!    -- might be unimportant.

[John Ceglarek]

Mr. Kuney,

There is a lot of wisdom in what you say.  I started shooting smallbore rifle silhouette this summer, and made the "mistake" (if you can call getting a good deal on an Anschutz a mistake) of buying a standard rifle first.  Then I ended up buying a CZ 452 to be able to shoot in both classes.  I'd rather not make that mistake again, if it can be avoided.  As I pointed out before, I didn't think there was a way to get a "hunter" rifle with the attributes I'm interested in, which is why I was focusing on using my 270 as a hunter-class rifle and finding/building a standard-class rifle.  It's beginning to sound like that's not the case.  While I'm still rather wedded to the 308 Win due to having brass, dies, etc already in hand, I could be convinced to switch.  But regardless of the caliber, it sounds like I can get a heavy-barreled rifle in a silhouette-friendly lightweight stock and still make the weight limit.  That's probably where I should be placing my effort, now that I'm hearing it's possible.  I understand it's not likely to be cheap, but it wouldn't have been in any case.

I looked at Nesika's website, and didn't see any stock options, only complete rifles.  Did I miss something there?  I was able to look at Brown's stocks on their website, and as you said I came up blank when I did a web search for Mark Pharr.  I've also looked at the McMillan and H-S Precision stocks, but both of those fall into what you called "conventional standard stocks" IMO.  I know what the Anschutz style stocks feel like, but they no doubt weigh more than the ones you suggested.  I'll likely give the two guys you suggested a call and talk to them to get some more specifics.

Thanks again for the help/information.  Anything else you can add?  Or anyone else??

John

[nomad]

Contact Mark and Marvin and get them to email you pics of what they're turning out.
Mark: 512 246 7563
Marvin you can PM on this forum

I'd bet that they can give you a LOT of useful information.

I 'think' that the Nesika 'light hunter' shown on their website is in the sil hunter stock that they get out of Canada and make available in the blank at something like $325. (If that stock isn't the sil stock, it looks that way in profile -- but there may be minor variations with which I'm unfamiliar. The sil version was designed by Keith Cairns at Alpine Machine in Olympia, WA, in concert IIRC with Dennis Martinen and others. They then passed it to Nesika when they determined that Alpine was unable to divert enough time to meet the need. IOW it's a silhouette stock from inception. IMO Mark's version fixes a couple of very minor shortcomings...e.g.: I don't have square hands so I don't like flat forearms! )

As for the .308, it's a fine round and lots of good scores have been shot with it. But there's probably a reason why just about all of the top competitors have switched to .260s or, sometimes, 7-08s. :wink:

[Metalhead]

Ernie...Thanks for the kind words...

John...If you want to talk about some Small Bore and High Power Hunter Rifle Silhouette specifics..You can reach me at Precision Target Sports,  (360) 748-3429...10 AM to 4 Pm...Pacific Std. Time....

If you have a good smith that you like, close to your home, I would be glad to share any info I have gathered over the years with him in hopes that he would derive some benifit for your upcoming project...Good luck...Marv

[nomad]

Marvin,

Complimenting good workmanship is easy! You're welcome.

I got to the editor at SSUSA Friday late and he says that you may not get an issue until the December mailing. If you really want to read about Winnsboro, I'll email you a draft copy.

If you see Cairns, 'remind' him that I need the pics for the report on his last match. (He keeps forgetting to do get them to me!) You have my permission to use whatver blunt object you feel you need for the reminding...

[Metalhead]

Hi Ernie...oddly enough...I got my first issue of SSUSA on Saturday the 9th...Nice article on the So. Nats...thanks...marv

[SteveAZ]

Sounds like you're pretty much on track. For a standard rifle you pretty much need to build one, have one built or find one that's already built. You are right that your local gun shop is probably not the place to go for that kind of work.  If you take some time you can find a 700 action. I see them from time to time on Benchrest.com that have already been trued, lugs lapped and so on.

As far as who, I know a guy in the Phoenix area that is, for my money, the #1 Remington 'smith in the world. If you'd like I can check with someone here that has or at least had, some Silhouette rifles. They're trued actions glued in to a stock. They have barrels but they're all wildcats. You might not want to deal with that. You can hang a new barrel on though.

If you follow one of those routes you can get a good rifle without breaking the bank.

On the subject of caliber. I'd encourage you to rethink the 308 and 270. There is a reason the the vast majority of shooters use, at most a 7-08. 260 Rem is probably the most common and there is a strong trend for 6.5-250 and 6.5 BR. There are still some iron goats shooting 308. I think once the stuffin' in their head gets bounced loose from the recoil  it never really gets firm again. LOL

Just in case you were starting to get a handle on things, I checked with a guy that stocks Silhouette rifles here. A Remington varmint contour will make weight with a fiberglass stock if you cut it to 24".

Good luck, let me know if you have more questions. Steve

[TomMojo]

John,

For the most part I'm a spectator at this forum, but in this case I thought that I would post a reply since what you are looking to do is something I have already done.  

I had a Remington 700 VS in 308 and it made weight.  Here is what I had to do to get it there.  I put on a Leupold BR-D 24X scope using Kelbly rings and bases which are made of aluminium and are very light.  Installed a Jewell trigger.  The one without the bolt release or the safety catch.  I also installed an aluminum benchrest follower under which I put in a piece of very light foam instead of the stock spring.  With these mods I went to a sanctioned match and found that the rifle weighed in at 10lb. 1oz.  It's kind of close to max weight, but as long as it's under the max, who cares.

Since that time the rifle has gone through some substantial changes.  MetalHead...  I mean Marv made it into a real standard rifle.  All the goodies I had on it originally were transferred over to the rifle Marv built.  With a few additions.  He installed a Shillen barrel, chambered for a 260 and bedded it into a McMillan Anschutz silhouette stock.  He also made a trigger guard and trued the action.  And a bunch of other details that really make it shine.  The rifle is absolutely beautiful.  Oh, and by the way... It shoots .25" groups at 100 yards.

If this sounds like another plug for marv, well... it is.  He built me an awesome rifle.

Mojo