how much patience

[Steve fuller]

I am using a .45 cal RCBS  405 fn W/ gas check (not using the gas check) mold for a 45/70. After trying for the perfect load for months and hundreds of rounds using various powders (T-7, Goex & pyrodex), primers. wads. seating depth and alloys the best I can do for a group is about 1.75 X2" @ 100 yards using a harder alloy and 70gr. pyrodex, using lead I can get a one hole group @100 but my powder charge is only 53gr. volume of pyrodex I think this load would be under powered for hunting purposes from 100 - 250 yards  I don't have a chrono so I'm kinda stumbling in the dark for this.  I like the idea of using a lighter bullet for hunting but am starting to think that I can't get  less than 2- MOA with this bullet when is enough , enough.

Also I have noticed while working up loads that the stronger loads shot to POA while the reduced loads shot about 11" high of POA, does any one have an idea why this would be the case.  All loads have been shot from a machine rest.

[sharps4590]

The lighter loads shoot high because the bullet has more barrel time and the barrel rises higher in recoil before the bullet exits the barrel, thus printing higher on the target.

You didn't mention what rifle you're shooting or your sighting equipment.  From my experience a group of less than 2 MOA@100 yds. with the bullet you're shooting isn't bad.    Also, if you're talking about shooting game at 250 yards I hope you have your sight settings memorized at 100, 150, 200, 225 and 250 yards unless you can estimate holdover very, very well.  If you haven't already, take a look at some ballistic charts for that weight bullet at as close as you can guess the velocity.

I'd suggest a heavier bullet if you want more accuracy.  Also one with a plain base.   The gascheck rebate may be causing some of your problem.  Lyman probably has the best selection of production molds for hunting unless there are some new bullet molds out there I'm unfamiliar with.  I finally broke down and acquired an NEI, 480 gr. bullet that looks a lot like an elongated Keith type SWC.  Superbly accurate and devastating on game.

If you're getting 70 grs. volume of Pyrodex in a 45-70 case you're crushing it.  You're 53 gr. load of Pyro. should be telling you something.  My standard load for years for my 45-70 was 61 grs. of GOEX Ctg. under a 450 gr. bullet and it flattened any deer or hog I shot with it.  That load also shot well in a number of different rifles.

If you can find some Swiss powder, and haven't already tried it, it might be worth the effort.  Sorry I can't offer an absolute answer.  Good luck!!

Vic

[Somerled]

Sharps4590 is right on the money. Try a plain-base bullet or use a gas check. The lube also makes an incredible amount of difference. I use SPG and a tablet-backing overpowder wad when loading Goex in my Shiloh Sharps. I have to keep the extra ammo out of the hot sun, though. The soft lube melts pretty easy. I have been thinking about trying the Lyman Black Powder Gold lube.

Good luck. Once you find the right combination those old soot producers sure do shoot.

[fffffg]

bpand substitutes have power throu out the stroke.. light bullets didnt give me accuracy with black probablly becouse it didnt give enough back pressure for even clean burning..  500 grain gas check bullets with 2 .060 vegi wads under gave me several one minute groups this winter(open sights).. i like the extra lube on the base for  second, third no blow tube shot..  i think youl find that the 500 grain will work fine for hunting with bp becouse the fouling shot can be brought very close to the second and third shot with lots of work.   vegi wad thickness varience, compression variance, powder type, and i beleve personally crimp will bring three shots together for you..  dave

[Steve fuller]

Thanks all for your reponses. This is an Italian Sharps repro (IAB) that I have had laying around here for about 28 years without shooting. I am using SPG lube, I have wondered about the size of the grooves on this bullet altho I have what appears to be lube defining the holes on paper at 100. I have tried various wad material from .06 veg to .015 gasket material, .020 wax milk carton seems to work best.

The 1.75X2 groups that I got yesterday was with a 2 lead -1 WW alloy. I had been trying pure lead and only getting acceptable results with what are to me quite reduced loads 50-53 grains of Pyro. This leads me to think the pure lead is being deformed too much upon firing, I have shot the sames loads side by side with the alloy and pure lead as the only difference and am getting groups about twice the size with lead.

I guess what I am trying to do is get some idea of when to give up on a mold and try other styles weights. I am not really into having a vast collection of moulds.  Do you think the cabelas cast bullets would be an acceptable way to try other styles & weights to give me an idea of performance/ Their bullets are all cast 20-1 how hard is this compared to pure lead.

I made a set of sights to use on this to work up a load, (rear peep and marbles front ) when I've convinced myself that I can shoot a consistent group I plan on buying a ladder style sight so I can adjust elevation, might also buy a rear aperature sight.  Once again Guys Thank You!!

[sharps4590]

Hey Steve...

I gotta ask a couple questions...and please don't think I'm being a smart a$$ because I'm not.  Have you been loading BP cartridges long?  Are you using a drop tube to dispense the powder into the case?  Is your Pyrodex load 53 grs. by weight or by volume?  If it's by weight that's a good load as Pyro was developed as a volume for volume replacement for black and is some lighter.   Also, if you don't have these two books, get them.  The fist is by Venturino and Garbe and is their spiral bound book on loading black powder cartridges, I can't remember the exact name of it.  The second is by Paul Matthews and is "Loading the Black Powder Cartridge".  Their methods are a bit different but the results are equal.

Part of the issue may be the rifle itself.  Also, if you have lube on the target that means it also isn't mixed in with the fouling.  Specks of lube on the target isn't a bad thing in and of itself but it still means the lube isn't mixing with the fouling in the barrel and that's where you need it.  The 405 gr. bullet obviously doesn't have the lube capacity of the heavier bullets, or most don't.   When using real black are you blow tubing your barrel?  Obviously this isn't something one wants to do while hunting and I don't, but, when developing a load it can help.

I cast all my lead 25-1.  This is a compromise I came up with and it works well in all my rifles, altho some prefer a softer mix of 30-1 and some a harder mix of 20-1.  There isn't enough difference in my rifles for me to cast up separate batches for each rifle, at least at my level of competition.  The 20-1 alloy you mentioned from Cabela's should work admirably.

The BHN (Brinnel Hardness Number) of pure lead is 5.0, wheelweight is generally 8.9.  A 20-1 alloy is probably about 6.0- 6.5 as it is softer than wheelweight.  I'm guessing at 20-1 as I don't have a hardness tester.  If someone does have a tester I'd be pleased to know what 20-1 really is.

I'm impressed you got such good accuracy out of 70 grs. of Pyrodex.  Usually a load that compressed shoots more like a shotgun.

As far as giving up on a mold I quit pretty quick.  With real black powder, which is all I shoot, once you have the essentials of the load chain down that changes very little.  I've shot a lot of old black powder cartridges and have a pretty good idea what will work and what won't.  The first thing I do if a rifle isn't shooting as I think it should is change bullets.  I prefer a bullet with a bore riding nose and I like the nose to enter the rifling a few thousandths upon loading.  Somthing one is cautioned NOT to do with smokeless powder but often encouraged to do with black.  Have you tried seating your bullet out farther?  Of course that depends on how your rifle is throated, if at all (most of those old Italian replicas weren't throated at all).   There is a way to determine this dimension but you can't do it with a gas-checked bullet.  That was a bit of rambling on my part.

If you're going to order some bullets from Cabela's try the Lyman bullet, number 457125.   It's a 520 gr. (from my mold at 25-1) round nose and a wonderful bore riding bullet.  I have had good success with it out to 400 yards altho after that I think the round nose is a detriment as it won't shoot with my RCBS 500 BP mold at greater distances, which isn't a bore rider but it has a long shank.

I have rambled quite enough.  If you can't tell, I love shooting those old "buffler" rifles.  I've been doing it about as long as that IAB has been laying around your house!!....hehehe!  Good luck and let me know how it works out for you.

Vic

[sharps4590]

I just thought of two more things you should be doing.  Weigh your bullets.  I segregate mine into two grain differences.  Say 405 to 406.9 gr.  Then 407 to 408.9.  I've found that to be close enough for my purposes.

Also, if you aren't, index your bullets as you seat them in the case and index the loaded cartridges in the chamber.   I use the case headstamp and the sprue plate cutoff marks on the base of the bullet for indexing.  I know...this is bench rest stuff but if you want to wring the most accuracy possible out of these old cartridges we have to play the game.  I think these two steps  contribute a lot to gilt-edged accuracy in these old cartridges.

Now I'll shut up.

Vic

[Steve fuller]

Vic.... The 53grain pyrodex load is by volume it weghs 39gr. which is the way that I loaded it  set my lyman measure up to throw 39gr. through a 22' drop tube.  I have been loading 6 of each load and cleaning the rifle between loads to try to simulate hunting conditions.

I have tried seating the bullets out to various lengths but so far this bullet is best with a light crimp in the crimp groove

I do have the books and found them to be quite informative but I think I've learned as much or more on the Net!

I've reloaded and shot alot of modern guns and have been a BP muzzleloader& hand gunner since 1967 but this cartridge thing is really a new game.

Using the 500 gr. for hunting what kind of expansion did you get on deer size critters,  I'm not against a heavier bullet but was concerned about performance on deer etc.  Have you ever tried the 330 gr. hollowpoint?  I was thinking of trying it but think it may be a crap shoot to buy the mold, I have 1-18" twist .

Can you give me an idea on how hard the 25-1 alloy is compared to pure lead  I don't have a hardness tester either but I have been squeezing the bullets with pliers in the same area in different bullets as hard as I can and measuring the indentation as a rough comparison. Using this I think 2-1 lead and WW is about twice as hard as pure lead

Thanks,  Steve

[sharps4590]

Hey Steve...

The 25-1 is still softer than wheelweight.  I'd guess between 6.5 and 7 on the BHN.  Maybe one of us ought to invest in a Brinnel hardness tester....hehehe.

I'm not going to say you can forget expansion with lead bullets at these velocities but I don't take it into consideration when developing a load for hunting.  You won't see much.  As I wrote earlier you're playing an impact and penetration game as opposed to hydrostatic shock and massive disruption of flesh and organs.  Not that a 480-500 grain lead bullet doesn't disrupt things, it certainly does, just not the same as a projectile designed to expand travelling at  2300-3000 fps.  I'm just about convinced that these heavy bullets impart more shock than the high velocity kinds.  I know that sounds ridiculous but over the years the reaction of game I've killed with these kinds of loads mostly just crumbles.  It's a different kind of shock to their system also, I think.

For these types of bullets I like as wide a meplat as I can find and the bullet still be accurate.  before I got the NEI mold I used the Lyman 457193 and 457643.   The 193 is a very old style bullet and tremendously effective.  Accuracy was always acceptable.  The 643 was brought out about 10 years ago and has a meplat of over 40 cal. I believe.  It's almost too flat.  I never could get suitable accuracy from it.  Anyway, all that was to say that I believe the meplat has to cut a hole thru the game.  Much the same as Elmer Keith advocated for heavy handguns 50 years ago.

You mentioned your rifle had a 1-18 twist.  I'm rather surprised at that.  It's a great twist in 45 caliber for these rifles........for heavy bullets.  That may also be part of your problem.  In my opinion the 330 gr.  hollow point would be less accurate than the one you're shooting mostly because of this faster twist.  Standard for a 45-70/90/100, et al, is 1-20.  However, the hollow point would most likely give considerable expansion fi you could make it shoot......but with 45 caliber you don't need it.  

I tried to pm you earlier but I don't think it went....e-mail me at
sharps4590@socket.net  

I'd be happy to tell you anything I have learned

Mama says supper is ready.....and I'm hungry!

Vic