Author Topic: Bullet weight for Black Bear (Read 1513 times)

warf73 · « **on:** October 19, 2004, 07:48:31 PM »

I'm heading off to Arkansas next month(think its next month) for a Black bear hunt.

I will be shoot from few feet-100yards I will be useing a 460WBY.

The bullet will be a 350gr. RN Hornady running 2250fps.

Was thinking about putting in 2 of the 350gr bullets and the #3 would be a 500gr. Barnes X running 2400fps. for the ow shyt shot if it would happen.

Do you all think I should leave the 500gr bullets at home and just us the 350grs. ?

I'm well practiced with both rounds, point of impact is less than 1" from each other at 100 yards, so aim wouldn't be a problem.

What do you guys think?

Thanks Warf

dabigmoose · « **Reply #1 on:** October 20, 2004, 02:55:07 AM »

well
I would say your not going to need them. Do you hunt much
with the 460w. Im not familiar with black bear in arkansas but
i dont think there are any T-Rex around there. Where in Arkansas are you hunting and are ya over bait ,hounds or stalk and shoot.
dabigmoose

Cabin4 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 20, 2004, 03:44:27 AM »

Thats is so much more gun for black bear than you will ever need. Especially in Ark. I would recommend moving down in caliber if you can. If you can't or don't want to, and your handloading, I would slow the bullet way down and use a simple soft point bullet of the smallest grain.

No matter what you use, 350, 500 or any other grain, you will kill the bear with a 460. I would be fearful that the bullets constructed for the 460 are of such a high quality construction and really designed for much larger and harder critters, they simply will not open up on the small black bear found in Ark. Maybe thats not an issue anyway with a 460 caliber bullet. Even if it does not open, theres nothing wrong with a 460 caliber hole punch ! So I'm not sure what you may be trying to accomplish. If testing ammo/bullets is part of your goal here, again, I don't know what you may have in mind.

Now, if you said you are hunting bear in PA, I might have a different recommendation. 500lb and even 800lb black bear are not all that uncommon in PA. PA only has a 3 day fair chase season on bear annually. Last year there were 3 bear taken in excess of 800lbs each. 300lb has become so common here that guys are passing these up for the 400 and 500+lbers.

Good luck and hope you bag a nice one. Let us know what you decide to use and how the hunt turns out.

Lawdog · « **Reply #3 on:** October 20, 2004, 03:49:14 PM »

cabin4 & dabigmoose,

Fellows!! Warf said a .460 Weatherby using 350 gr. Hornady RN bullets at 2250fps.. This is down to .450 Marlin velocity(about average for the .450 Marlin). A fairly mild load. Just above the .45-70.

Warf,

As a Weatherby collector and a user of the .450 Marlin in a bolt action rifle(Win. M70) the velocity is good but your choice of bullet is what I question. Will it hold up on the bone structure of a good sized Black Bear? I have had a little trouble with them holding together on bones is Wild Boar. If I were you I would go with the new Barnes 450 gr. TSX bullet. I am getting great results with them in my .450 Marlin's and my .450 Rigby. Go ahead and use the .460 Weatherby, I see nothing wrong using it. Lawdog

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #4 on:** October 20, 2004, 06:53:01 PM »

I agree with Lawdog 100%.... smoke um if ya got um

dabigmoose · « **Reply #5 on:** October 20, 2004, 06:57:07 PM »

Lawdog
I read that part about the 2250 velocity,350 gr RN. thats why i posted he will not need the other loads he was thinking about taking due to there not being any other type of dangerous game in the area.This will be a fine load for black bear and many other things within a certain range.
The 460 is capable of longer range shots if needed with the correct load.
Thats why i asked whats the expected hunting condition in arkansas. I
worry more about the conditions of a hunt than the gun.

NO ONE EVER SAID THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WItH USING THE 460.
I Have killed Black bear with everything from a .22 when i was a kid
to a 4 bore we used what ever we had in the village as they still do
for subsistence hunting and i understand some people only use one
rifle for everything. So being overgunned is not a argument with me at all
as i use 1886 in 450 alaskan that was made for me in Coopers landing years ago .
Overconfidence and lack of skill in the bush though will get you killed and
usually its the Elements of nature that get you.

dabigmoose

warf73 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 20, 2004, 07:49:47 PM »

I will be hunting over bait on the ground in one spot and over bait but in a tree stand in the other.

The 350gr. RN is my own developed load. I can run this little bugger way over 2800fps but don't think it will hold together at that speed. I was looking at speed vs. bullet performance. Trying to get the best of both worlds. From what I've read the Hornady 350gr RN will perform best under 2300fps.

I know the Arkansas black bear isn't very large so that’s why I picked the 350gr RN. over my 600gr. RN :shock: I really don't think the big stuff is needed but wanted a fresh look at the topic.

No the 460 is my choice of firearm for the task at hand. Over kill maybe but it's my favorite rifle.

If I can I will be shooting for the front shoulders, I want to break the bear down so he won't run off or do any damage to me.

If you guys don't think the Hornady 350gr RN will hold together then I will look at some other bullets. How about the 400gr. Barnes O bullet?

Thanks for all your input so far.

Warf

Cabin4 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 21, 2004, 03:09:43 AM »

Quote from: Lawdog

cabin4 & dabigmoose,

Fellows!! Warf said a .460 Weatherby using 350 gr. Hornady RN bullets at 2250fps.. This is down to .450 Marlin velocity(about average for the .450 Marlin). A fairly mild load. Just above the .45-70.

Yes, and your point is ?

As I said the 460 is way more gun than needed. As I said, it will kill the bear. My only recomendation is to slow it down and use a bullet that will expand the small black bear found in ark. As I said, I don't know what his objective is and if it has ammo testing included ??

Yes, I understand that 2250fps using a 350grainer is close to 450marlin 350gr factory load at 2100fps. Yes I understand that this is above 45-70 using a 300gr factory load at 1880fps. And what does this have to do with the price of milk ?

Rmouleart · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2004, 03:24:08 AM »

Hey if he wants to use a cannon have at it, as long as the bear don't run too far;) Dead is Dead right. Use what you are comfortable with and shoot the best, I would not use anything less than a 30cal either,as far as I'm concerned,when hunting bears. Shot placement is No#1, there has been bears that have got there leg shot off from a bad shot, and the bear still gets away, you would be surprised how good a three legged bear can run, ashame the suffering the animal has to go through, thats why I say practice and more practice, be confident in your self and your shooting skills, even before you ever think of hunting any game, that is one step in the right direction. Remember there is never too much gun when hunting big dangerous game. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Lawdog · « **Reply #9 on:** October 21, 2004, 08:08:35 AM »

dabigmoose,

I didn't mean to post your name. My apologies to you Sir. Forgive me Please?

cabin4,

Quote

Yes, and your point is ?

Quote

Thats is so much more gun for black bear than you will ever need. Especially in Ark. I would recommend moving down in caliber if you can. If you can't or don't want to, and your handloading, I would slow the bullet way down and use a simple soft point bullet of the smallest grain.

You made it sound like you were condemning him just because he was using a .460 Weatherby. I was just pointing out that he was using a reduced load that put it in the same category as the .45-70, which everyone likes to say is great for Black Bears(which it is). I didnt think you noticed that part about the velocity of the load he was planning on using. And that is what it has to do with the price of milk!

Warf,

I still dont like the 350 gr. Hornady bullet(I use it all the time in my .458 caliber rifles) as it seems to want to break up on heavier bones at velocities over 2,000 fps.. The older 400 gr. Barnes X bullet is what I have been using in my rifles. It works great if you can get it to shoot accurately. Lawdog

Cabin4 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 21, 2004, 08:53:23 AM »

Quote from: Lawdog

You made it sound like you were condemning him just because he was using a .460 Weatherby.

I certainly did not mean it to sound like I was condemning him. I think if you reread my post in full context, you should be able to come to that conclusion.I was, however, pointing out that it is way more gun than needed for black bear. There should be little disagreement on that point. Heres What Weatherby has to say about the 460:

Introduced in 1956. Considered to be the worlds largest, most powerful shoulder-fired cartridge, the .460 shoots a 500 grain bullet at 2,600 fps, delivering an incredible 7,507 foot pounds of muzzle energy. Thats 50 percent more energy than the .458 Winchester. Heavy recoil to be sure, but few hunters who need to stop a charging Rhino or Cape Buffalo complain. Nearly four tons of smashing power make the .460 the only choice for Africas most dangerous game.
He asked for opinions, and I gave him my opinion on the 460 for black bear in Ark. Its not as thou my input was unsolicited.

I'm also not sure that we can't apply blanket statements about similar/same bullet weight, FPE and similar caliber and come to the same conclusions. Is there not a construction differance between these bullets ?

Perhaps a 350 gr bullet from the 460 at 2250 will provide the same results as a 350gr from the 450marlin at 2100fpe, maybe not, I don't know. This is the first time I have seen this connection between these 2 calibers. Are the same bullets used in the 460 the same as the 45-70/450marlin ? I thought they are differant bullets. I know they are both .458, but the rest ?

snowdog · « **Reply #11 on:** October 21, 2004, 09:17:08 AM »

My grandfather down to me have used the same win model 94
30-30, with 170 grn bullets, traveling at 1900-2000 FPS.

4 bear have been killed with this rifle from 125 lb bear to 350 lb
bear. oddly enough.....to my knowledge the only bear that
required 2 shots was the 125 lb blackie, first shot was to far forward.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 21, 2004, 09:37:22 AM »

My next Maine bear hunt will be done with that same combination. 30-30 using 170's.

Lawdog · « **Reply #13 on:** October 21, 2004, 01:08:40 PM »

cabin4,

Quote

Perhaps a 350 gr bullet from the 460 at 2250 will provide the same results as a 350gr from the 450marlin at 2100fpe, maybe not, I don't know. This is the first time I have seen this connection between these 2 calibers. Are the same bullets used in the 460 the same as the 45-70/450marlin ? I thought they are differant bullets. I know they are both .458, but the rest ?

There is no reason why the .450 Weatherby using the same exact bullet shouldn't give the same results as a .450 Marlin as long as velocity is the same. While I haven't bought my .460 Weatherby YET, only because I haven't found the right one, I do have a .450 Rigby that is very near to the power of the .460 Weatherby. I use reduced loads all the time for practice and on game like Wild Hogs. My favorite reduced load using the 350 gr. RN Hornady bullet drives it at just over 2,300 fps. and in the weight of the heavy M77 Ruger the recoil is mild. If Warf had said he was going to use a .45-70 driving a 350 gr. RN Hornady bullet at 2,250 fps. I dont believe anyone would have said a thing(other than maybe a little too much velocity) including me except for the type of bullet. May the Goddess of The Hunt smile upon you. Lawdog

warf73 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 21, 2004, 07:20:44 PM »

Well as I stated in my other post which no one read I guess.

I will be purchasing some 400gr. Barns X & O bullets later today. I will start load devlopement Tuesday. If all goes well I will have a load by Sunday.

Thanks for the input on the bullet choice or lack of good bullets choice.

Thanks for all your points of view.

Sorry this turned into a run away thread and a few people getting mad at each other. That wasn't my goal in this thread.

Thanks Warf

dabigmoose · « **Reply #15 on:** October 22, 2004, 08:48:15 AM »

warf
isn't THIS YOUR PHRASE!
"Life isn't like a box of chocolates...It's more like
a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn
your ass tomorrow."

No harm done these boys have ice cream stashed somewhere.

JUST LET US KNOW HOW THE HUNT TURNS OUT.
I think its good that all these guy care and try to help other hunters
and thats what this site is all about.
Dabigmoose

Gowge · « **Reply #16 on:** October 22, 2004, 12:57:31 PM »

Quote from: dabigmoose

warf
isn't THIS YOUR PHRASE!
"Life isn't like a box of chocolates...It's more like
a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn
your ass tomorrow."

No harm done these boys have ice cream stashed somewhere.

JUST LET US KNOW HOW THE HUNT TURNS OUT.
I think its good that all these guy care and try to help other hunters
and thats what this site is all about.
Dabigmoose

Good point, Moose! Actually, that 350gr bullet is only a little more pop than a 454 Cassul in a Legacy '92 Carbine.

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_5_49/ai_99145185

These are over-the-counter 454 loads....

LOAD VELOCITY GROUP

Winchester Super-X 250 gr. JHP @ 1,583 fps 1 1/2"

Winchester Supreme 260 gr. @ 2,275 fps 1 1/2"
Partition Gold

Hornady 300 gr. XTP-Mag. 2,030 fps 1"

It sure don't hurt to have plenty of gun when you get a chance at a trophy bear, whether it's a 700lb Black or a 10X10 Grizz! If you don't mind totin' it, bring it & shoot it!

Lookin' forward to readin' your hunt report.

GOOD LUCK WARF!