6.5 mm BR Remington question

[haroldclark]

A friend of mine recently bought a 6.5 BR barrel from Ed's TCs.  I need to know what kind of brass to begin with.  

If I started with Remington 7mm BR brass and necked down, would I have to turn the necks on a factory TC Chamber?

I'm not fond of Lapua 6mm BR brass or any Lapua brass for that matter.  But I haven't found any Remington 6mm BR brass sources as of yet.  

I am looking for any info you guys might have on loading the 6.5 too.  We want to use 120 to 142 grain bullets.  The barrel is a heavy bull, 16" long and I had a Holland Muzzle Brake put on it.  Yeah, I know, why put a muzzle brake on it?  I don't know, but it is for an old man, like myself, and we are not into too much excitement or pain anymore.

He is going to use the barrel for 500 meter silhouette only at this time, so we need a heavier bullet.  I don't know if the twist will support a 155 Grain Sierra yet.  I think the 140 to 142s will be the choice.

Any ideas on the brass forming would be appreciated.

Harold Clark

[Kivaari]

Harold

..is this for a Contender or Encore frame?

[Darrell H]

I don't have any experience with the 6.5 BR but here is a source for 6mm BR brass.

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/422684

Good luck!!

X

[haroldclark]

They don't make or won't make a 6.5 BR in an Encore, I don't think.

Anyway, the one in question is on an Encore frame.

Harold

Thanks for the infor X-Caliber

[Lone Star]

Most 6.5BRs have 1:8" twists; Sierra states that their 155 needs at least an 8" twist in a rifle, but the low velocities out of a 6.5BR in a handgun makes me think that you'll spend all your time keyholing with them.

The 155s have a lower BC than the 142s do; lets do the math.

142HPMK - .575BC - 2200MV - 0.87 ps @ 600 meters
155HPMK - .560BC - 2100MV - 0.89 ps @ 600 meters

Clearly the difference in momentum at 600 meters is insignificant.  The 142s will perform as well on the steel, and they should shoot out of the 8" twist barrel.  Both stay supersonic so that isn't a problem.  

The 155s do not shoot out of my .260Remington rifle with 10" twist @ 184,000 rpm.  In an Encore with an 8" twist and 2100 fps the speed is 189,000 rpm.  This is a crude way to compare the two, but the 155s will be marginal at best out of the Encore.

[haroldclark]

I agree that the 155 Sierra and the 142 Sierra 6.5 bullets appear to produce the same results at 500 meters or 600 yards.

500 yard velocity of the 142 is 1467 fps and energy is 678.6 fp and the wind deflection in 10 mph is 25.2.  The momentum is 0.93 pounds.

500 yard velocity of the 155 is 1415 fps and energy is 689 fp and the wind deflection in 20 mph is 26.4.  Momentum is .098 pounds.

Doesn't appear to be much difference, but when that 155 hits a steel Ram at 500 meters, the dwell time of the heavier bullet imparts a nano-second or two more push before discentigrating to lead dust.  That few extra moments of hang time improves the chances of a knock down many fold.
However, if I were to use the 140 grain Berger VLD (very low drag) many things come into play.  The Berger will take Rams better than either Sierra bullets.  It has a harder jacket and I suspect more antimony in the lead core.  The dwell time is longer.  

The low drag will allow the bullet to be going at 1544 fps at 500 yards and still only provide 0.96 fp of Momentum on paper.  We have yet to ring a Ram with that bullet in the 6.5 Swede.  Granted it has more velocity than the Encore 16" barrel. but the chances of one Ringing with the Berger isless than with either Sierras.

Yesterday, I shot my new 7mm BR 18.5 inch Encore (Van Horn Barrel).  I can get very impressive paper data on the 140 grain Hornady, Sierra and Speer bullets and even the 162 grain BTSP from Hornady.  I will ring rams occasionally with 140 grain bullets.  Yesterday, I knocked over 13 out of 14 hits with the 162 grain Amax Hornady bullet.  It is all about weight and dwell time (Hang Time).

Thanks for the interesting conversation and input.


That barrel is for an Encore.  Earlier, I wrote they don't make the 6.5 BR in an Encore.  I meant "Contender".  

Harold Clark

[Lone Star]

The deciding factor will be bullet stability.  Ballistic tables only work if the bullets remain stable.  If that 155 yaws even a little, there goes that high BC and the down-range performance will be significantly worse than the 142.  I've shot silhouettes since 1985, and I have yet to see a statistical difference between bullets giving 0.9 and 1.0 ps of momentum on the steel (I spreadsheet my data from every match - trying to draw a conclusion from a single match result proves nothing).

Talking about dwell time and energy transfer is all nice fun at the clubhouse after the match, but at this level of performance there is little discernable difference - IME anyway.   Target placement on the rail, rail condition and the target's surface condition have as much or more to do with it as bullet length.   Just another factor to consider...

[Jay HHI6818]

Hello Haroldclark,

I have a MOA pistol chambered in 6.5BR. I used 6 BR Lapua and necked it up and I had to neck turn it because it has a tight neck. I contacted Sierra Bullets several years ago and Carroll Pilant mailed me load data for the 6.5BR. It has bullets from 85 gr to 142 HPBTM. If you email me at  goforit40@msn.com  I'll be glad to email it to you.

I have one question for you. Are you going to have the barrel shortened as 16 inches is illegal for IHMSA.  

B. Unlimited
1. A handgun with a maximum barrel length and sight radius of 15 inches and a maximum weight of 5 pounds, unloaded, with magazine, may be used in all Unlimited categories.

Another thing is that it probably won't make weight (6lb) being a heavy bull barrel.

2. A handgun with a maximum barrel length of 15 inches and a maximum weight of 6 pounds, unloaded,
with magazine, including telescopic or other optical device and mounts, may be used in the Unlimited Standing, Unlimited Any Sights, and Unlimited Any Sights Half-Scale categories. Scopes and other
optical devices must be removed from handguns that are to be used in the Unlimited and Unlimited Half-Scale categories.

[haroldclark]

I will get an email off to you in a bit for the 6.5 BR loading Data.

We are not shooting ISHMA or even NRA sanctioned.  We have a very large club with 900 plus members.  The 200 meter Handgun Silhouette just died off here over 6 years ago.

My shooting buddies and I play on the 500 meter Rifle Silhouette Range 2 days a week and 2 weekend days a month.  I was declared as the only guy in the club that would show up at a rifle match with a handgun.  If January we started a shooting match within the club and fire the rifle course from the bench with handguns.  In October we had 12 shooters and it is growing.  Since I started the match, I made the rules.  Maximum barrel length is 20 inches including any brakes.  Any scope is permissable.
I just received my custom Van Horn barrel in 7mm BR last week.  We have had 3 of our shooters with custom 20" barrels with 3 to 12 Burris scopes and they have not matched the high scores obtained by a stock 7mm TCU 14" barrelled Contender and a 15" Bullberry 7-30 Bullberry of 38/40 and 39/40 respectively.

Therefore, I have held off making classes of firearms.  I shot a 34 high for me with a factory 7TCU 14", but I hurt my wrist a while back and flinching became an issue and it is difficult to shoot with your eyes closed from wincing from expected pain.  So I went custom to reduce recoil.

We will not be applying for sanctions by any associations.  There are no trophies or awards.  There is only bragging rights and chest beating and knuckle dragging around the firing line.  I run a very relaxed match and we make if a social affair.  We have a great time.  Everyone is introduced and assigned an experienced shooter to help the new ones along.

I shot ISHMA in the late 70s and it got a little to intense for my taste after several years.  Fighting over rules and etc. ruined the game here in California.  We had two 200 meter handgun ranges close to me now and I was a mere 3 miles from another in the 70s.  They all dried up.

I'd be willing to bet on the MOA that you have.

I shot my new Van Horn 7mm BR again today and ran 20 turkeys at 385 meters.  I was thrilled again.

Harold Clark

[Ramringer]

Harold,
The best type of brass to use 7br necked down or 6mmBR necked up to 6.5 depends a lot on what style of reamer the gunsmith used on the chamber of the 6.5BR... The Remington 7br is 1.520 length and the Remington, Lapua, Norma is 1.560 length. The Remington is a little smaller in diameter in the web area than the Lapua. Some of the earlier reamers would not allow the newer thicker Lapua to chamber. In other words the Remington 7mbr brass should work ok no matter what...It just might be a bit short in the chamber. The Lapua might not fit because of the little extra width to it...  I have both new and old chambers in 6.5BR and have to keep all my brass seperate.  If you are still looking for Remington 6mBR brass... The old DCM just unloaded 50,000 plus bulk brass that was in storage. I know a guy in Ohio who posts on this board who has a case or two of it for sale... BTW, most of the really rabid 6.5BR shooters think the Lapua 6mmBR is about some of the best brass ever made.. For 200 meter steel shooting I can't see a difference in my custom xp's and Rampro's... We will be shooting some 500 meter targets next year as they are pushing the range back to 1,000 yards...

[haroldclark]

Ramringer,

That was just the info I wanted.  Thanks for the input.  I am happy to hear that you will be shooting the longer ranges.  It is a real kick in the pants.

The guy in Ohio:  What brass did he get?  6 BR or 7 BR or both?  How many are in a case and what does he want for it.

My buddy that has the 6.5 BR barrel also has a new 7BR barrel made by Van Horn, just like mine.  I ordered them both at the same time.  He needs 7mm BR brass too.  If we can neck down 7BR brass, we can buy at least a thousand cases for him.  I could use some too in 7 BR.

Several years ago, some of my shooting friends got talked in to buying Lapua 6.5 Swedish Mauser brass and I fell into the Hornady Special run brass that I believe was made by Lapua for my 7.5X54mm MAS.

I normally buy Remington brass and my Swede stuff is Remington.  I have not had any problems with brass hardening.  They have to anneal the necks every third shot or the expander ball will not come out of the neck when sizing.  One of my friends brought his RCBS press and dies and C-clamped it to an enourmous Picnic Table at the 500 meter range.  He lifted the table off the ground trying to get the ball out of the neck.  Now, that can't be good.

I will look forward to hearing about the brass from Ohio.  It is nice chatting with you.

Harold Clark