38-55 "keyhole" situation

[TopperT]

I loaded my first BPCR loads last night and today let fly with them. :shock:  :shock:
Problem is that is the correct description of todays shooting.
I am shooting an H&R Target 28" in 38-55.  I encountered 75% of all rounds "keyholed"  All were in the 'bull area (about 10 inches at 50 yards).  All shot off a rest.
I used a 280 grain .377 lubed lead bullet with a gas check.
(these were the ONLY 38-55 Lead I could get....I have more on order without the gas check)
I also put a non-lubed .30 wad over 40 grains of 777 and 40 grains of Pyrodex.
Questions gentelmen.......what am I doing wrong? :oops:
My goal is to make this work.....SO....I do indeed have work to do.  Thank You for your knowledge.

[Mason Stillwell]

First I would try slugging the barrel.Find out what diam. it is .

My 38/55 shoots a 379 boolit. I know there are 377's out there but LOTS are 378 and using a 379 boolit gives you a good tight fit in the barrel.

You can purchase the slug kits on line at several boolit makers or Midway USA.

Hope this helps
Mason

[HWooldridge]

Have you been able to inspect any recovered bullets?  Any noticeable problems such as deformation of the base may be a clue.  Otherwise, it sounds like they are skidding for some reason and not engaging the rifling for proper spin.

[The Shrink]

Jim

Do you know your rifling twist?  The Greenhill formula will give you a guide if your bullet is the proper length for your rifling.  Remember we are talking the length of the bullet that engages the rifling if I'm not mistaken, not the weight or even the overall length, although I may be wrong on the overall lenght vs the bearing length.  

Anyway, I'm not familier with that rifle and how it's rifled.  As suggested above, slug your barrel and size your bullets .001 or .002 larger than the groove size and you should have a good fit.  Check your rifling and find the Greenhill formula and apply it to your bullets.  Only after doing these two things would I look for another bullet or gas checks.  

Wayne the shrink

[Lead pot]

Jim.I would follow Mason's sugestion there are a lot of varribles with the .38-55 bore and twist.
It could be the bullet.A280 grainer should fly,a 250 gr might work better.
I ran into a problem with my High wall when I first got it trying to develope a load for it,I dont care what I tryed for a load it just would not bring a good groop.So I finally put scope bases on it and I loade up some copper jacketed bullets I swage Loaded some with 5744 powder and more with 3f goex and shot the smokless jacketed bullets ,only 25 of those buggers,It was a calm day at 200 yds I shot 20 of that load.They printed about 8"high but all 20 would fit in the 3"Xring of that SRC 200 yd target.
Next I shot the lead bullets again, they were all over that 24" paper keyholed,that rifle never put a slug sideways in the 1000+pluss I have shot before working up a load.
I spent a good hour scrubbing thr bore getting the copper out,shot 10 and looked all looked good,no keyhole and they were in a nice 4"groop the best it ever shot.

I guess Jim what I'm trying to say if that rifle has shot copper jackets clean the bore very good and try it again with no gas checks this time.
Heck it might work. :wink:

Kurt.

[44 Man]

Slug your bore!  A lot of the old rifles had .380-381 bores!  The .375 winchester has a true .375 bore but the old 38-55s were much bigger.  Match the bullets to the bore and I'll bet she'll turn into a shooter!

[The Shrink]

Jim

I was just reading the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and they mention that almost all the 38-55 rifles they have tried have headspacing problems.  they recommend getting a gunsmith's evaluation of all old 38-55's.  

I know it probably doesn't answer your accuracy question, but I thought it an interesting note for Lyman to make.

Wayne

[TopperT]

The solution is and was, to go to a larger slug.  I did.  I now have 4 inch groups today (in 20 degree colddddddd )).  The answer so far is a 240grain .380 Master Cast bullet, spg lube, .30 veg. wad, and 45 grs of 777 (FF equlivent) and, this is new today I added, 2 grains FFFF.  Fact is however there was little difference between the rounds with stright 47 grains of 777.....Solid compression on the round in WW cases touched off by a Federal 210 LR primer.  So far at 100 Yards is 4"......next, to get to 1.5".   Thanks to all who answered my post. :-)

[swifty]

In my reading of the book "Loading for the orginal Trapdoor Springfield"
The authors Pat Wolf make a big point that BPCR rifles like the trapdoor need a soft lead alloy like the 20-1 mixture. My friend who has a lot of experience shooting a trapdoor told me he first tried to shoot Miester Cast bullets in his trapdoor which keyholed just as yours did.
He switched to the 20-1 bullets and now shoot a 3 inch group at 100 yards. His propelant is 1 1/2 Swiss Black powder.
BPCR or low velocity smokless need a softer bullet. You have to buy pre made bullets that specify 20-1 bullets it from someone like BuffaloArms.com or Colorado Shooters supply. Most lead bullets are much too hard to shoot in lower velocities.They have to be shot at higher speed.
 It does need to fit the barrel plus .001 or .002. Get yourself some egg shapped lead sinkers in a varity pack. Use a wooden dowell that just fits the bore and drive the sinker through. Measure the slugg. Try to order a bullet that is .001 or .002 over bore size . They are expensive .You might want to get a bullet casting kit from Cabelas and some moulds to meet your needs . Lee has some inexpensive moulds. Veral Smith has the best which will be cut to your needs .I cast mine and buy my alloy in bulk .Check out the cast bullet section . Also, scroll down this web site to the section on ASK Veral. He is one of the best in the country in accuracy shooting cast lead bullets. I have the same gun and would like to hear how you progress. Marbles makes a tang site for your gun if you want the ability to adjust the wide range of elevations you will need for slow heavy lead bullets. Try to get the Lyman handbook on cast bullets.

[wgr]

my h&r target model  shoots great but i have to use a .280 slug it cast at 250grains with my alloy. you might have to open the chamber to take the .380 diameter bullet

[jjamna]

I have to use .381 Dia Bullets in my Target Classic

[jjamna]

These are at 100 yds with .381 bullets and Target Classic
1st is with Unique powder
2nd with American Pioner

[Kmrere42]

HI,


Nice targets...


I had 2 different H&R Target model 38-55's over the years.  The first had a .381 bore and the second was .3825. Both were sent back to H&R and they did little more than fire a test target and sent them back even though their bore spec was for a .379 max.  It was a nightmare to get any real grouping with them I even had to ream the front of the chamber on my second rifle just to allow a case to chamber with a .383 cast bullet.


Your best options in the H&R is to swage soft lead into an appropriate shape and paper patch.  Tools are a little expensive to start but you will have much better results with no leading. 




God luck..


Paul