Author Topic: Bullets Cause Chambering Problem (Read 933 times)

Patriot_1776 · « **on:** October 31, 2004, 04:21:52 AM »

I've been having a troublesome time with those 200r. SWC FMJs in my SigP220 ST. I was testing to see what accurate load I could find. But the cartridges seem to bind during chambering. I have pinpointed the problem; there is not enough bullet surface to contact the top of the chamber, which would realign the cartridge into the chamber, therefore these bullets don't do that. So, the body of the cartridge is getting hung-up on the chamber, due to too steep an angle of entry. I messed around with seating depths, and found a length that would help alleviate this problem, with another problem though. I think the tip of the bullet was hitting the rifling a bit on chambering; not a good thing, I think. Why do these bullets give me such trouble? I remember something about the SigP220 was not designed for anything but ball type ammunition (or round-nosed bullets). Is that true, or have I done something wrong? Thanks for any thoughts on this. Patriot

P.S. Of course there is nothing wrong with the gun! As when I went back to shooting my loads with 230gr. RN, they worked flawlessly. So that proves its the bullets, not the gun.

Iowegan · « **Reply #1 on:** October 31, 2004, 05:04:24 AM »

It's the bullets! Getting a SWC to feed in any 45 is a challenge. The 1911 types have a different angle on the feed ramp so it helps. The P220 is a great gun but it wasn't designed for SWCs.

There are a few things you can do that might help. Make sure your bullet is seated where the lead lip is flush with the case mouth. Make sure you apply a sturdy taper crimp so the case mouth doesn't hang up on the ramp. Feel the case mouth, it should be turned in slightly so it doesn't have a sharp edge.

A good alternative is a 230 gr LRN. They are very accurate, feed well, cheap, but don't make a nice hole in the paper.

bigdaddytacp · « **Reply #2 on:** October 31, 2004, 10:36:00 AM »

Quote from: Patriot_1776

I've been having a troublesome time with those 200r. SWC FMJs in my SigP220 ST. I was testing to see what accurate load I could find. But the cartridges seem to bind during chambering. I have pinpointed the problem; there is not enough bullet surface to contact the top of the chamber, which would realign the cartridge into the chamber, therefore these bullets don't do that. So, the body of the cartridge is getting hung-up on the chamber, due to too steep an angle of entry. I messed around with seating depths, and found a length that would help alleviate this problem, with another problem though. I think the tip of the bullet was hitting the rifling a bit on chambering; not a good thing, I think. Why do these bullets give me such trouble? I remember something about the SigP220 was not designed for anything but ball type ammunition (or round-nosed bullets). Is that true, or have I done something wrong? Thanks for any thoughts on this. Patriot

P.S. Of course there is nothing wrong with the gun! As when I went back to shooting my loads with 230gr. RN, they worked flawlessly. So that proves its the bullets, not the gun.

.........My 220 feeds a similar bullet well.....check the diameter of the bullets to make sure they are sized right for 45acp loadings.......and check for a taper crimp die if you are using a normal roll type crimp die.......some dies work better to seat the bullet and not crimp and then use a crimp die or reset the seater to only crimp....some shave lead as they seat-crimp and make the shells chamber difficult.........polish the feed ramp and chamber edge.....LIGHTLY.....this is standard procedure for any of my guns and same with magazine feed lips.........this has solved many similar problems on other guns of similar design......I LOVE my Sig.......and that was hard after so many 1911's of every sort........hth..good luck and good shooting-loading!!!

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 31, 2004, 01:26:28 PM »

Thanks for the info. BTW, in case there is confusion, I will never put a lead bullet through my Sig. The bullets I used (have) are "Berry's Preferred" Full Metal Jacketed SWCs, not lead. I'm sure the bullet diameter is fine for the cartridge. I think the only problem is the P220 is not designed for these bullets I have. So, I'll just persevere, shoot 'em up somehow, and afterwards just stick with the good ol' 230gr FMJ RNs.

Iowegan wrote:

Quote

Make sure you apply a sturdy taper crimp so the case mouth doesn't hang up on the ramp. Feel the case mouth, it should be turned in slightly so it doesn't have a sharp edge.

I'll give it a try, and see how it works. Does using a really hard taper crimp give it a sort of roll-crimped feature? Or is it just a well-finished edge after a hard taper crimp? I'd worry a bit about bullet deformation. :?

bigdaddytacp wrote:

Quote

...I LOVE my Sig...

I know what you mean. Great guns, very comfortable and reliable. I'm hoping to get some Hogue finger-grooved rubber grips for my P220 soon.

Patriot

:agree: SIGARMS :toast:

Iowegan · « **Reply #4 on:** October 31, 2004, 05:42:08 PM »

I hate to contradict you but Berry's bullets have a very thin copper plating over a lead bullet. They look like jacketed bullets but they aren't. See: http://www.berrysmfg.com/categories/2-0.php They are sized to .452 (jacketed are .451) and will load the same as a lead bullet. They are designed to reduce lead vapor for indoor ranges. Actually, they are pretty decent, cost less than jacketed, and are quite accurate. But they are just lead bullets with a better wardrobe.

Most semi-auto dies come with a taper crimp built in the seating die. I don't know what brand of equipment or dies you are using but I will assume you are on a single stage press and don't have a separate crimp die.

Readjust your seating die by backing it out a few turns then screw the bullet seater stem in to the proper seating depth. Seat your batch of bullets, uncrimped. Unscrew the seater stem and screw the die back down until you get a good taper crimp. This should only crimp the front 1/8" or so and should form the case mouth down where it is not a sharp edge. If you try to seat and crimp in the same operation, your results will not be as good.

If you have a separate taper crimp die, make sure your bullet seating die is set where it doesn't crimp at all. Let the taper crimp die do its job.

You have a great gun and I'm sure you will enjoy loading ammo that will make it happy.

De41mag · « **Reply #5 on:** October 31, 2004, 07:26:10 PM »

Patriot;

I put several thousand Hornady 200gr. SWC/CT through my Sig P220, without any problems. The trick is Cartridge Overall Length. Called Hornady on this one. As long as your COL is 1.250" or less, they will feed. That bullet was my all time stand by. The ideal length, I came to use was 1.245" COL. And it did not matter wheather I used W-231, WST, Bullseye or even Blue Dot. It was ACCURATE. My favorite was 10gr. of Blue Dot behind the 200gr. bullet with the COL of 1.245". I never shot any lead bullets at all through the Sig.
Give it a try and give us a posting.
Good Shooting.

Dennis

Donna · « **Reply #6 on:** November 01, 2004, 08:28:06 AM »

Contrary to other postings, you never want to use a roll crimp on a cartridge that headspace on the case mouth. Ive always used a medium taper crimp. I had a KP-90DC that had chambering problems I tracked the problem to a slight burr on the chamber, after polishing it off never had another problem chambering. Hornady makes a nice taper crimp die.

Donna

Questor · « **Reply #7 on:** November 01, 2004, 08:39:49 AM »

I agree with de41mag about OAL. Experiment with OAL, start by making them shorter and see if that helps.

Iowegan · « **Reply #8 on:** November 01, 2004, 08:07:32 PM »

Sorry Questor, The Sig P220 doesn't like short cartridges because of the feed ramp angle. Besides, shorter COL will increase chamber pressure. The question was about 200 gr SWCs and they can't be seated shorter without bottoming out on the web of the case. They can't go much longer either because the bullet's shoulder won't push into the bore. The ideal COL for a 200 gr SWC is where the bullet shoulder is flush with the case mouth.

Donna brought up a good point. Some 45 dies have a roll crimp instead of a taper crimp. This is fine for a 45 Colt but not an ACP. Make sure you have a taper crimp die. If in doubt, use the seater/crimp die for a seater only and buy a separate taper crimp die.

De41mag · « **Reply #9 on:** November 02, 2004, 04:29:13 PM »

I beg to differ, Iowegen.

Yes, Patriot needs to make sure he has a taper crimp, first off.
But, My post indicated a 200gr. SWC from Hornady. And as I stated, I had called Hornady on the feeding of the SWC for a Sig P-220. And that is what they told me. As long as the COL is kept at or below 1.250" There would be no trouble in feeding the Sig. They were correct in my gun.
Plus, .025" is not going to deep because the MAX COL for a 45ACP is 1.275". The people at Hornady pointed me in the right direction.

Dennis

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 02, 2004, 06:15:18 PM »

De41mag,

If I may ask, what type of bullet are you using? I know SWCs, but are they the jacketed bullets, or are they, how could it be put, "regular leaded?"

I was curious to know, as I went to Hornady and only found the SWC 200 grainers in the lead form, but the jacketed were only found in 185gr. I am thankful for all the input from you folks. If the Hornadys are this good, maybe after I use all the ones I have, I might consider buying a box just to test them. I most likely would stick with the 230gr. RN FMJs, just for traditional reasons I guess. But I really would like to steer clear of shooting total lead bullets in my semi-autos. Revolvers are OK, at least my Colt 45/454 Casull. Why? Because I can blast a few Casulls w/ my 300gr Hornady XTPs to rid the barrel of any lead afterwards! :grin: As for my reloading dies, the brand is RCBS and the seater is a taper crimp, not a roll. I just remembered that I have a set of Hornady dies for my 454 Casull; and it happened to have a taper crimp die along with the set. On the Hornady die, it states on the top: 454 CAS TC AP. Which would stand for Cowboy Action Shooting, Taper Crimp... But I don't know what the AP stands for; maybe Action Pistol? Would that be usable for 45 ACP cartridges, or not? NOW I'm confused!!! :? :roll: :x

Patriot

De41mag · « **Reply #11 on:** November 03, 2004, 04:15:48 PM »

Patriot;

The bullet is a Hornady 200gr. SWC/CT (Semi-wadcutter, Combat-Target)
It is a true jacketed bullet. I think they call it the SWC/TC Enc. (Meaning that it is encapsulated at the base so no lead is exposed).
Any double-actiion auto I stay away from lead or cast bullets due to the heavy lube build-up after firing. My Sigs have NEVER had a lead bullet shot through them. I know that Lock, Stock, and Barrel out of Nebraska handles them and you can buy in bulk. 500, 1000's. :shock:
As I said before, I think it is the best bullet I've shot. :grin:
Call Hornady, and ask them about your dies but, I believe they are taper-crimp. Also you can ask them about their 200gr. bullet I just told you about. The people at Hornady are real helpful. :grin:
If you have any more questions, feel free to ask, I'll try to help.

Dennis

De41mag · « **Reply #12 on:** November 03, 2004, 04:39:07 PM »

Oops!

That is SWC/CT Enc. not TC.
My bad.

Dennis

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 03, 2004, 07:22:01 PM »

De41mag:

Thanks very much for your help on these bullets. BTW, as for my current SWC FMJs, I loaded 50 this evening and seated them deeper to see how they chamber. I seated them until the full-caliber portion of the bullet was almost flush w/ the case mouth.

As for the most part a guess-timate, I'd say there is .01" of the full-cal portion exposed. That gave it I remember a COL of 1.17" or around there. As for a reference, these bullets I have are about the same shape and size as Speer's 200gr. lead SWC.

I used 5.2 gr. of Bullseye (the min. starting load listed in Speer for a 200gr. SWC FMJ), and chose that load particularly to make sure the bullet's seating depth does not cause any pressure trouble. I don't believe they will, as the P220s are also designed for +P loads too. It is a relatively ligh load, just as a precaution. Anyway, they did chamber easier.

What I do to check for any unnecessary contact with the chamber, is I slowly close the slide action by hand. When the round chambers, it catches a little bit now, but it does not BIND the action. A bit of thumb pressure on the back of the slide closes it to full battery. But let the slide close full-force and it will chamber pretty much like anything normal.

So with everything in play like it is currently, is there really anything to watch for during firing? I'm more concerned about pressures being erratic or possibly on the high-end side. Plus, I was wondering if there is such a thing as a "maximum" seating depth for the 45 ACP, such as can be found with the 9mm Lugers. Those 9s can be pretty touchy with pressure Speer says, and suggests that you shouldn't seat the bullets any deeper than they have tested for their reloading info.

Again, thanks to everyone for their help; I really appreciated it on these bullet selections.

Patriot

De41mag · « **Reply #14 on:** November 04, 2004, 04:29:19 PM »

Patriot;

Sounds like your headed in the right direction. Your using the same RCBS dies as myself. One more thing to look for is once your bullet is seated, measure the outside dia. of your case mouth. If it is 0.4730" +/- 0.001" your OK. If it's more than that then you will hang up during cycling, So what your trying to do is remove the flare but not crimp too tight, you can crimp too much even with a taper crimp die.
As far as MAX. seating depth, I don't think there is one. As long as the case does not look like a snake swallowing an egg, your OK.
I've always heard that when using SWC bullets for 45ACP, allow about a fingernail distance between the shoulder of the bullet and mouth of the case. It's not written in stone but it seems to hold true.
I have a S&W model 625 revolver, in 45ACP and shoot cast bullets, in it. The bullet I use is a 185gr. SWC/ Match with a COL of 1.150". And use Bullseye behind it. and get great accuracy. But as I said before, like you, I don't shoot cast or any kind of lead out of the Sigs.
Keep us posted on your results. :grin:

Dennis

Mikey · « **Reply #15 on:** November 05, 2004, 02:53:42 AM »

Patriot - I once had a problem with cast bullets failing to chamber and finally wound up doing exactly what you have done - I seated the bullet to where the case mouth was level with the foreward most edge of the leading band and that ended my problems. I also used a taper crimp application by just removing the decapping pin from my sizing die and using that as a taper crimper - worked very well for me.

I have used other cast bullets, some in straight (as in revolver type) swc configuration, some more suited to the semi-auto. If I just continue to seat them so the case mouth is at the forward edge of the leading band, I'm fine and don't have any failures to chamber. I have even used .452 diameter 255 gn swcs for the 45 Colt and they chambered fine and didn't cause any problems.

Now, De41Mag - I believe your Sigs would do ya proud with cast slugs - do you shoot cast through your 41 Magnum - if so, why not your 45?? Just a thought, Mikey.

De41mag · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2004, 10:20:50 AM »

Mikey;

I don't know just a personal thing I guess. I remember back in the early 90's I used to recieve the Sig Arms Quartley and they mentioned in there not to shoot cast bullets. But then again they don't suggest reloading for them either. Also talked with Terry Labbe that owns Magnus bullets near here and he said that you have to watch out for a build up in the throat area from the lube and powder fouling and suggested cleaning the bore about every 100 rounds. He said that that area is not foregiving in a Sig like a 1911. Also he said that he has a fella that shoots a p-220 with his 200gr. SWC ahead of Blue Dot. And has shot many thousands of rounds with that load.
And yes.... I shoot cast bullets out of all my revolvers.
So, I guess it's just one of those things that people do, kinda weird, don't ya think? :shock:

Dennis

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2004, 02:55:09 PM »

Quote

...used a taper crimp application by just removing the decapping pin from my sizing die and using that as a taper crimper...

:-) :-) Ohhhhhhhhh OK... You take the decapping pin out BEFORE you taper crimp with it. I get it. :-D :-D :shock:

Kinda odd what everybody eventually finds out. Then you realize how much money you could save without the extra feature inside the seating die.

Patriot

Savage · « **Reply #18 on:** November 08, 2004, 02:27:26 PM »

Lots of reloaders use an extra sizing die for the 4th die in their progressive. What you are doing is post sizing the loaded round, not crimping. The sizing die has no crimping capability. I post size all my .45 ACP ammo to insure feeding in my target Kimbers with their tight chambers. I actually use 5 dies including the "Lee Factory Crimp Die". The LFCD alone solves most feeding problems in auto loaders. Just curious, why not use cast bullets in your SIGs??
Savage

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2004, 04:06:17 PM »

Savage wrote:

Quote

Just curious, why not use cast bullets in your SIGs??

Well, I like to keep jacketed bullets as the main course for my semi-autos. As for cast bullets, I am considering whether I want to use them for all-purpose shooting, for my 45 Colt loads only. In my preference, the only thing that keeps me to possibly liking cast bullets in that cartridge is I can fire a few 454s through the gun to keep the bore free of any (if possible, but most unlikely) leading that could occur. I doubt there would be any leading at all, but its just my preference.

Secondly, for my semi-autos, I don't want to be too concerned about lead powder/vapor levels, as I shoot my semi more than my revolver. Lastly, I don't want to spend the possible extra time cleaning out the lube or lead particulates that could accumulate over time inside the tight spaces inside the gun. So that pretty much sums up why I would prefer fully jacketed (including the heel) bullets for most of my shooting needs. When shooting at paper, HPs are OK, and are a secondary in choice. But I do like FMJs, they seem more traditional in my 45 ACP. They are less expensive, feed perfectly, and are just plain fun to shoot! :wink: Those 230gr gumdrops make great plings when you hit a steel target with 'em. I hope that answered your question.

Patriot