280 vs 25-06

[KA-POW]

what is the more accurate caliber, or if anyone who has a better caliber for all around shooting( deer, chucks, paper) let me know....looking for a new barrel that i can get to shoot around atleast 1/2" groups(reloads) if this is possible with the handi.

[Fred M]

With what you have in mind you will be hard pressed to find a big Handi game rifle that will shoot 1/2 groups. Either caliber will do the job. Either caliber can be very accurate. Handi's are temperamental and may not shoot well right off the bat.

The 25-06 leaning more to the lighter game  like deer< while with the 280 you are all set for anything in this country. The 280 makes a respectable varmint gun with 100grHP and 120gr V-max bullets.

There is no universal caliber that does everything well.

[Brett]

Half inch groups is asking a lot from any production rifle let alone an inexpensive rifle intended for hunting not target shooting.  And then to add to that requirement you want a caliber that is good for everything from small varmints to deer sized game!  No offence but I think you're asking for your cake and to eat it too.

[KA-POW]

so what do you think would be a barrel that i could get atleast 1/2" groups out of(any barrel)?  i have a 300wby mag so i really don't need a deer rifle, but would like to have an all around one.  i was leaning towards a 204 for chucks and paper, but also the 243 or 223.   how accurate is the 223 and 243 with the bull barrels?

[Brett]

Hello, we are talking about a <$300, break action hunting rifle here.  Your odds are about 1 in 1000 of getting one in any caliber to shoot consistent 1/2" groups or less. And that would be with a lot of tweaking and very careful hand loading.  For the most part, 1/2" or better groups takes you into the relm of custom bolt action bench rest rifles.  If you don't want to take my word for it do a search of 'postal match results' on this site and see what kind of groups the best shooters & tinkerers have gotten with their Handis.  :wink:  My .280 is good for about 1-1/4" groups if the wind isn't blowing, I do my part and the stars are aligned just right.  

[KA-POW]

ok, i was just wondering.  i can get 1/2" to 5/8 groups out of  my 300wby with 180 Gr. Barnes X handloads, and i have nothing done to the rifle except for trigger work...   other loads shoot about an average of 3/4 to 1 1/4"   just thought the smaller calibers(223 or 243 would tighten up) ,   o well...have to think about it some more.

[Brett]

Honest, consistent (not once in a blue moon lucky) 100 yard 1/2" 3 shot groups from a production rifle in a heavy caliber...  consider yourself blest my friend.

[Nuttinbutchunks]

I can get .75 to half inch groups from my .17 Handi if it's not too windy

[mitchell]

:wink:  My .280 is good for about 1-1/4" groups if the wind isn't blowing, I do my part and the stars are aligned just right.  

thats why you groups are lacking . Don't you know that you have to stick your tung out the left side of your mouth to get good groups. you silly guys.

[Fred M]

Yah, with a .17 you have a chance for a 1/2" group on a calm day.
With a bigger caliber you will do it only in your dreams. If you be talking 1" groups you might just do that, but I would not bet on it just yet.

[Mac11700]

Ahhhhhhhh Bulllll Hockey........yes you can get a Handi rifle that consistantly print...5/8"- 1/2" groups for 3 shots.....the durn trick is to get them to shoot it in 5 shots like the postal match.....I'm on my 2nd 308 guys....the first one did it in 5 shots...with Federal Match ammo....was it a fluke group....nope....my new one will shoot 3/4"---1" for 3 shots using regular Hunting ammo,and so far I've only had the time to shoot 3 different factory ammo out of it......sooo don't be so hasty in saying the Handi's won't producetight groups....I would be quicker to say a-lot of guys give up on them too quick...or their trying to load them up to Magnum velocities.....and just in case you forgot...my 308 came in 2nd for the 30 caliber groups......2 matches ago...


Mac

[Fred M]

Ok, OK Mac I stand corrected. The law of averages predicts that there must be a few out there that will shoot real tight groups.

You are right in saying if you give up on them you are not going to make them shoot. I know quite well of all I did to that 25-06 to make it shoot even with a poor barrel. If H&R would pay more attention to the chamber- throats and bores there would be a lot of tack drivers out there. Besides
1-1/2" groups is not all that bad that is what Wby garanties.

[MSP Ret]

Being basically a hunter and not a benchrest shooter I would be very happy with a gun the absolutely, positively put the first bullet exactly where I wanted it all the time. Two in a row would cover all contingencies and 3 in a row would be insurance. After that, if they were an inch or so off from POA it would be OK with me. Remember, one shot,  one kill. As an aside, during night firing techniques at the State Police Academy the old phrase was, "shoot 2 and screw". If your first 2 hit the mark and you side stepped from your muzzle flash to hopefully avoid being hit by return fire, you would most likely be around to see the sun come up....<><.... :grin:

[KA-POW]

that is my major concern also...but when i get bored i like to handload and see what the rifle is capable of...  i'm going to have it bedded this spring after hunting season and hopefully it will help to pull some of my other loads in a little...

[Mac11700]

Very good point MSP on the shoot and move...thank God...the deer aren't shooting back :wink: ... I say getting a 3 shot 1/2" group isn't that difficult provided you've have a good assortment of factory loads and handloads to try out... from these great little single shots...getting 5 shots under an inch is good shooting,but entirely possible...granted...some of these rifles are chambered wrong...and the throats are cut exceeding long...but most of the time the problem isn't the gun...but the shooter...or...the shooters location....trying to shoot for scores at a public range where one can be shooting next to a 454 Casaull going off on one side and a 300 Weatherby mag on the other side of you can destroy most avaerage persons concentration...I know...this is what I've had to deal with for the last 3 years moving over here to Missouri...public ranges really aren't conducive to shooting your best...especially...anytime near deer season... and another big reason folks can't get decent groups...is they don't want to spend the money on factory fodder or the multitude od handload combinations to find out which one will do the best for them...it's just getting to durn expensive...and ther-in lies a big problem

One of the things I see folks saying a-lot...is ...." Minute of deer is good enough"....then they say they can't get their Handy to shoot 1/2" to 1" groups....these guys haven't spent enough time,money,or effort to make their rifles shoot...or...they just don't care to...I don't know which...but I do know...if you want to shoot litle iddy biddy groups...your going to have to spend the time,money,and effort to make it happen...most of the time...every-now-and then...you can luck out right away...other times you won't...it's more a luck of the draw...on how it goes for each rifle...


Mac

[Hildy]

My 25-06 Ultra will put 3 into 1 inch at 100y without much effort. It likes the Federal 90grn Sierra Varminter factory load and a handload consisting of 56.5grns of IMR 4350 behind a Hornady 75grn V-Max.

I think I can get this gun under an inch considering I have done nothing to it since I bought it.

But, honestly, if you are hoping for 1/2" groups, you are going to have to look into another direction. The guns aren't made under that high of a quality.

[Brett]

I have shot a couple of 5/8" to 3/4" groups with my .280. However they are the exception not the rule.  I thought we were talking about average group size not the smallest group size that is possible if conditions are perfect and we are having an exceptional day at the range.  I challenge any of you to save all of the targets you shoot over the course of several different range sessions and see what your true average group size is. And none of this called flyer crap either, you can't call flyers in the hunting field, all shots count.  I think you fellas who are claiming consistent sub MOA groups will be quite surprised at what you find.  We tend to remember only our the better targets and forget the rest of them.

[Mohawk]

.280 all the way.

[safetysheriff]

what is the more accurate caliber, or if anyone who has a better caliber for all around shooting( deer, chucks, paper) let me know....looking for a new barrel that i can get to shoot around atleast 1/2" groups(reloads) if this is possible with the handi.

I'm not sure you'll find .25 cal' match-grade bullets out there too readily.   You'll find 7mm match-grade which will really turn on a .280 Handi -- if that's what the rifle likes in the first place.     But you changed the rules by mentioning the .223 later on.....

Want a quick recipe for 100 yd' 1/2" groups out of a Handi'?    Want to shoot a cartridge that owned the 200 yd' matches for a few years -- but do it now out of a Handi'?

Get a .22 Hornet in a Handi'.     Then get a .222 Remington reamer and  cut a new chamber into that Hornet.     Then see if you can't shoot 1/2 Minute of Angle with a Handi'.   You'll have a shorter throat for seating your bullet right near the rifling, and you'll have a properly-centered chamber, too.    Call Clymer for their suggested reamer, telling them what you want to do with it.    

Want to harvest white-tailed deer with that rifle?     Use the Hornady 50 gr' spire point out of it and you'll probably -- that's my opinion, now, before the crying starts again -- probably take some fair-sized deer at 100 yds' using proper neck and lung shots out of that rifle.    

Take care,

SS'

[Mac11700]

I have shot a couple of 5/8" to 3/4" groups with my .280. However they are the exception not the rule.  I thought we were talking about average group size not the smallest group size that is possible if conditions are perfect and we are having an exceptional day at the range.  I challenge any of you to save all of the targets you shoot over the course of several different range sessions and see what your true average group size is. And none of this called flyer crap either, you can't call flyers in the hunting field, all shots count.  I think you fellas who are claiming consistent sub MOA groups will be quite surprised at what you find.  We tend to remember only our the better targets and forget the rest of them.

 
Brett:
 
I am talking my average size groups...like I said ...."most" folks won't go to the trouble of spending a couple hundred bucks on different factory loads...nor will they try 14 different boxes of various weight bullets by different manufactures...or 10 different powders...and all the different make of primers...not to mention all the different ...or at least most of the different brass...nor spend hundreds of hours at the loading bench,and countless hours on the phone to the various bullet companies and powder companies...but...I have...on may different occassions...and plan on doing it again...but that's my passion...so...when you say you have tried all of them...or at least the lions share of them...then you can say that most can't....and one other thing...shooting for group size with 5 shot groups isn't really a true challeng for these rifles...unless your shooting P-dogs...but were not talking about the varmint class calibers here...so realistically using a 3 shot group would be more of an indication of what the larger bores can do in the field... and most would be better served shooting from an improvised rest as you would do in the field...I think you can make a far better judgement of you...and ...your rifles capabilities... when hunting...I do a-lot of my shooting from a knees up sitting position..and using my knees as the rest.....but...that's just me...
 
 
Mac