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Offline Deadeye47

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« on: November 22, 2004, 05:55:47 AM »
:shock:  THIS IS JUST WHAT THE HUNTING/SHOOTING COMMUNITY NEEDS RIGHT NOW..... :(
 
   U.S. National - AP
 
 
5 Killed, 3 Hurt in Wis. Hunting Dispute

6 minutes ago   U.S. National - AP
 

By JOSHUA FREED, Associated Press Writer

BIRCHWOOD, Wis. - A deer hunter killed five people and wounded three more in a dispute over a hunting platform on private property during the opening weekend of deer season, authorities said.


AP Photo


AP Photo  
 Slideshow: Five Killed in Wis. Hunting Dispute

 
   

A 36-year-old man was arrested Sunday afternoon when he came out of the woods, sheriff's officials said.


Deputy Jake Hodgkinson identified the suspect as Chai Vang but would give no details. Vang is from St. Paul, Minn., said Paul Schnell, a spokesman for the St. Paul police department.


The shooting started when two hunters returning to their rural cabin on private land saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, Sawyer County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. Hunters often build platforms in trees in order to be able to view prey and shoot from a high angle.


Both of those hunters were wounded and one of them radioed friends at the cabin a quarter-mile away. Other members of their group responded and they also were shot, he said.


"It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?" asked Zeigle.


Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.


About 20 shots were fired but it was unclear if any of the hunters had fired at the suspect or who might have shot first, Zeigle said. There was just one gun among the eight people killed or wounded, he said.


The dead included a a teenage boy and a woman, and a father and son, Zeigle said. Some of the victims were shot more than once. All five were from the Rice Lake area, about 15 miles southwest of Birchwood in the northwestern part of the state, he said.


Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.


The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two other hunters who didn't know about the shootings helped him find his way out, Zeigle said.


The man was arrested when he emerged from the woods and a Department of Natural Resources officer recognized the deer license on his back from a description given by one of the shooting victims, Zeigle said.


The man was out of ammunition, he said.


One of the injured hunters was in critical condition at St. Joseph's Hospital. Another was listed in serious condition and the third was in fair condition, both at Lakeview Medical Center.


Hunter Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh, was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters when they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and discovered roads in the area had been barricaded.


"When you're hunting you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," Wagner said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."


"We're all old, dyed-in-wool hunters," he said. "We wouldn't go home because of this, but we will keep it in our minds. We're not forgetting it."
" I believe that forgiving them [terrorists] is God''s function. OUR JOB is to arrange the meeting." Gen. Schwartzkopf........AMEN  Norman  :agree:

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Offline v8r

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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2004, 04:07:18 PM »
:evil: Too bad someone didn't shoot back.Some people are nuts.
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Offline single shot shooter

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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2004, 06:12:04 PM »
i agree they shoulda shot back.
Single Shot Shooter  :D
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2004, 07:15:06 PM »
Apparently there was only on rifle found with the eight victums. From various news reports, some were involved directly with the trespasser then the others arrived after they requested help, those people arriving on ATVs and being unarmed thinking they were responding to a shooting accident, not an intentional shooting, were also shot.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/22/hunters.killed/

And one of the three survivers has now died.


http://www.wqow.com/news/articles/article_2196.shtml
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Duce

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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2004, 02:27:54 AM »
People: My prayers are with those families.
I own 80 acres here in Indiana, and once or twice a year I have to confront someone trespassing. My fustration comes from someone who thinks they have a perfect right, because Kerry told him it was alright, shoot Kerry was trespassing!!! I've even had one fool try to bluff me. Trying to tell me how he owned this  place!! I wanted his address, I wanted to send him the property tax bill. It's not like I've got everything posted, most if not all the time if someone ask, I more than welcome them.
Now I've got to worry, if I have to confront someone, do I need an 870 with double ought!!!  
Maybe the only thing to do is to call the authorities, let them take the chances. They would probably only response 24 hours later, if at all.
Guess the bottom line is that in a case like this it is best left to the authorities. Or just let it go there's always tomorrow, there's no stand or blind worth getting into a gunfight, no matter if you win or lose.
There's something else to ponder, what kind of legal problems would the owner have if after this fellow fired an shot, he would have blown him into next week???
Fellas Be Careful: :grin: <>< Duce:
What ever you'll put up with, is exactly what you'll get!!!!!

Offline tscott

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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2004, 03:32:45 AM »
Duce, your comments make a lot of sense. Let me lend a non landowners perspective. I was drafted as a 19 year old for Viet Nam. This cost me seniority, etc. early in my employment. I felt it my duty to fight for my country / land. After early ret. from my original Co. I taught at West Point.
I always hunted the strictly controlled West Point land with great success.
I moved to North carolina, and originally could not find a landowner, who would let me hunt... eg: money, or bad experience. I started to think,
I made sacrifices gladly, put my life on the line for America, and now I can't find a little parcel, without taking away from my little girls' college fund. Too many people similar in appearance to this past weekend's shooter, seemed to be on public land. I vowed never to return.
A teaching friend secured me permission from a landowner, It's not perfect (I gave my name and # to a guy this past weekend who has apparently the same agreement, but who had the gall to call me out of the woods to contend whether I had rights). I'm tired!! Thank god I can drive up to NY and hunt West Point, where MP's are on patrol constantly.
I didn't always feel this way. I once thought the West Point deal was over kill. I would always respect an owners rights. I was raised in the 50's and 60's. I'll never retire, I like friends, and people too much. I guess in this world I'm just wierd!!!

Offline RussB

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This is just incredible!!!
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2004, 04:40:57 AM »
I have been watching this story with great interest. My prayers are with everyone involved.

I have a strange feeling things are not as they appear. I do believe there is much more to this story than what the news has reported. The truth of why, who, and how this came about may never be uncovered.
The fact that the man was where he shouldn't have been, can sure make one jump to conclusions.

Respectfully, Russ

Offline v8r

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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2004, 07:23:36 AM »
Did I read the post right,a SKS is a common hunting rifle? I thought it was a assault weapon.Why on earth do you need a firearm with the capacity of 20  plus rounds to hunt with?I don't think there is a state in the US that will let you kill that many deer in a hunting season.This person wasn't hunting I think he just wanted to kill something ,and it didn't matter what. :?
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2004, 07:49:45 AM »
I've read hundreds, literally, of posts and news articles about this and have been following it closely. FWIW, lots of "hunters or shooters" do use the SKS as a hunting rifle, which is a surprise to me, it is legal in Wisconsin and apparently because it is compact and cheap, a favorite of people of small size. They can be had for as little as $100 and there are several 125 gr hunting loads available, not just FMJ ammo. There is a cottage industry the creates 5 round mags for these firearms to make them legal in states where there is a magazine capacity law, which Wisconsin isn't one of em, apparently or that would be another offense to add to the list. This is certainly a tragedy for all involved and I hope more facts will emerge as the investigation continues that will make more sense to it all, if that is possible.
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Major

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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2004, 08:28:25 AM »
I pray for the families of those killed and I am sure there are factors at work there that we will never hear about.

As far as hunting with an “assault” rifle, what is that?   Can anyone give me a true description of what an “assault” rifle is?   During the Civil War the single shot muzzleloaders was the “assault” rifle of their day.   During the 1880Â’s in the Indian wars it was a trapdoor single shot.   My .30-06 bolt action 1917 Enfield was the “assault” rifle in World War One.   So were the bolt action SpringfieldÂ’s and Mousers.   Civilians have always used surplus military guns when they became available.
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2004, 08:34:37 AM »
My prayers are also to the families of those injured or killed...


You can bet...the anti's will use this to try to stop sales of sks or any varients of them...especially if everyone all starts saying what sporting purpose do they have...if you give them an inch...they'll take a mile...so we shouldn't start debating it's usage...but zero in on the muderer who presipatated this henious crime...


Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Duce

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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2004, 09:17:56 AM »
Good People: I agree the anti's will use this like a baseball bat, pointing out how an assault weapon is good for only one thing KILLING!!!!
Like my Handi's a great can opener, such is the logic of the anti. Many ex-military rifles meet one or two of the points be considered an assault rifle. My old Civil War rifled musket meet one, bayonet lug.
Point is that it will always be the person that pulls the trigger!!!! In this case what is the state of mind, that causes a person to shoot anyone who is unarmed, much less run/hunt down and shoot others that come to their aid.

The tragedy here maybe that this fellow is a foreigner, and maybe the only view of American hunters is what the media puts out. One that portrays us as a bunch of armed to the teeth buffoons, ready to shoot first and ask questions later. If that were to be the case, then there is another life ruined by these tragic events. This in no way justifies what was done, but may be the reason for what was done. If this were to be the case, I certainly hope that it is layed squarely on the doorstep of those that put it in motion.  :x <>< Duce:
What ever you'll put up with, is exactly what you'll get!!!!!

Offline bubba

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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2004, 10:01:31 AM »
Duce I would never tresspass
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline Duce

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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2004, 10:20:47 AM »
Bubba: Got the message, message edited. :wink: <>< Duce:
What ever you'll put up with, is exactly what you'll get!!!!!

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2004, 11:21:19 AM »
Text of the probable cause hearing, very detailed and several pages long..
http://www.startribune.com/style/news/newsgraphics/files/shooting1123.pdf
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Offline safetysheriff

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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2004, 01:16:10 PM »
I said this once before, not to be a know-it-all, but it's a different world out there today.    In the woods you better be armed, even on your own property.    

Believe me, I live north of where that moron shot a few hunters in Ohio several years back......and it gives you plenty of reason to be careful ----- and armed.   Last year one bowhunter was wrongly run off property we hunt by someone who 'threatened' him and told him a lie about property rights....and then tried to sell the same lie to the man who rents the property we hunt.     I think the law got involved in that one because the threatening party has not been seen around the place in months.    He'd had a checkered past and had done time for an assault here in N/E Ohio.        

Put your trust in God, not in your fellow man.......because you don't know what people will do today.     God is the only 'Constant' in this world.    

SS'
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline v8r

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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2004, 03:15:10 PM »
Sorry guys.I did not mean to bring the phrase "assault weapon" into the forum.I just don't understand the need for a high capacity magazine for hunting.I think if you are a true hunter you should only need maybe 2 or 3 rounds.I was not aware of the hunting rounds available for this chambering.Military firearms are lots of fun to shoot,and I don't think they should be banned.This man was just out to kill something,and it didn't matter what.I go hunting and most of the time I just like to watch all the wildlife.It's a shame there are people like this that might be in the woods with us all.I used to work with a couple of guys that were of foreign origin.I remember one of them telling me he went hunting and saw a good buck.He said the deer came out of a thicket and stopped behind a big oak tree.The only part of the animal that was exposed was the hind quarters of the deer.Instead of waiting for the deer to step out from behind the tree,he gut shot the deer.He said he looked for the deer and never found it.Don't get me wrong I am not racist in the slightest bit.I just think we all need to pass along good hunting ethics to everyone.If someone does something that is unethical we should help educate one another. :D
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Offline greenjeans

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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2004, 03:33:34 PM »
I don't think the SKS meets the definition of "assault rifle" anyway. It is not fully automatic and is longer than carbine length, which at least one time, was a part of the definition.  If Kerry had gotten in, the Handi's could classified as assault type weapons.
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Offline RussB

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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2004, 04:46:52 PM »
Quote from: quickdtoo
Text of the probable cause hearing, very detailed and several pages long..
http://www.startribune.com/style/news/newsgraphics/files/shooting1123.pdf


Thanks for posting that guickdtoo.
I don't know what to make of it at this point, but I do have thoughts that are better kept to myself. It has all the appearance of a needless, shameless, killing. The local news is playing it for all they can get out of it, as you well know.
Again, my prayers are for everyone involved, and every responsible hunter out there, who will also end up paying a price for this most unfortunate incident.
Russ

Offline Donaldo

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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2004, 04:48:07 PM »
'course I am down here in OK and maybe don't here all I should,....but more than I want to.  But....last I heard, the guy had some previous problems with this sort of thing.  Also that the Hmoungs (sp) did not understand the concept of "private property".  What the he.. does that mean.  As I often say, Anyway, guess the "MEDIA" will have their field day with this.
Luke 11:21

Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2004, 05:33:41 PM »
The man spent 6 yrs in the US military and has been in the US for 25 yrs, you'd think he would have some grasp of the meaning of private property. There are so many holes in his account of the incident (they don't agree with the evidence or with other things he said) that he'll be lucky to get out of maybe one count of 1st degree murder, let alone all six, plus 2 additional counts of attempted murder.
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Offline v8r

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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2004, 07:12:45 AM »
He is a nut.I am ashamed he was in our military. :x
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2004, 05:14:26 AM »
Quote from: v8r
Sorry guys.I did not mean to bring the phrase "assault weapon" into the forum.I just don't understand the need for a high capacity magazine for hunting.I think if you are a true hunter you should only need maybe 2 or 3 rounds.I was not aware of the hunting rounds available for this chambering.Military firearms are lots of fun to shoot,and I don't think they should be banned.This man was just out to kill something,and it didn't matter what.I go hunting and most of the time I just like to watch all the wildlife.It's a shame there are people like this that might be in the woods with us all.I used to work with a couple of guys that were of foreign origin.I remember one of them telling me he went hunting and saw a good buck.He said the deer came out of a thicket and stopped behind a big oak tree.The only part of the animal that was exposed was the hind quarters of the deer.Instead of waiting for the deer to step out from behind the tree,he gut shot the deer.He said he looked for the deer and never found it.Don't get me wrong I am not racist in the slightest bit.I just think we all need to pass along good hunting ethics to everyone.If someone does something that is unethical we should help educate one another. :D



If you are a true hunter one round should do it!  :grin: Just joshing you as you said 2 or 3, but  to me I do not care what you hunt with a SKS or a Muzzle loader or single shot or a lever gun or bolt any anything inbetween. This assualt rifle stuff is anti gun crap and too darn many hunters if it does not look like their gun are just as quick to condemn it as the anti's are. Yea you do not need twenty rounds to hunt with but if the average guy wants it on his rifle who are we to complain. I do not like gun restrictions period but if the state said 5 round minimum that is what I would use but then where does that put the lever guns ect?????? Unfortunately this mung thug put the semi auto bill right back into the public eye. I hunted with a SKS once and sold it. I found that if I am going to shoot a cartridge of that power I perfer my 30/30 Lever 94. But to each their own a lot of guys use them for hunting and I do not see anything wrong with it. If they want to hang a large clip on it I guess that is there privlige also until the law says differnet. Got to admit a 20 or 30 rounder on a rifle in the woods does look kinda goofy and with stripper clips a the stock ten round clip can be reloaded quickly and does not look so " Bad Gun Syndrome" Unfortunately this senseless killing in my home state has put the "Semi Auto assualt bill in high profile and more ammo for the anti gunners. Too darn bad we do not have capital punishment in WI.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Deadeye47

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« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2004, 05:53:53 AM »
Well...as Quick pointed out this whole thing reeks of insufficient info which is obviously left out by the media to cloud the real story as usual....It just makes me sad though that all this was caused by (aledgely) a hunting spot....jeez!!  :? And as far as the 'assault weapons"deal goes...I to say who gives a damn how many bullets your gun holds! These treehugging , vegetable eatin whinny defectives would whine about how many sharp sticks or rocks ya had on ya if ya trapped animals in a pit and jumped in on them to finish them off :x  I don't hear um complaining of the indians haveing more than one arrow in their quivers though....freakin mental midgets.. :x
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Offline v8r

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« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2004, 02:35:10 PM »
Sorry guys.I am going to go sit in the corner now.I did not know that sks's were used commonly for hunting rifles.Everybody around my area uses a bolt action,I am definately in the minority myself by using a singleshot.By all means use what you are comfortable with and can shoot well.I don't mean to sound like I think they should ban any firearms.I wish the incident never happened.All the people that were killed and injured would still be here with us.All the media tells us is what they want us to hear.I don't watch the news much because they don't ever have anything positive to say about anything.If it was positive It wouldn't even be a story on the news.          I DID NOT MEAN TO OFFEND ANYBODY, SORRY
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2004, 03:02:55 PM »
No need to be sittin in the corner, v8r....  :wink:  This whole thing has us all upset and the weapon of choice used by Vang has made things real sensative. I don't think anyone is upset with you in particular, just the events in general, at least I didn't see it, anyway. You ought to see the write ups at AR and the Marlin board, talk about some name callin and fuss, sheesh! I'm truely glad GB has this forum set up the way he does, it sure makes for a nice place to have a discussion without a bunch of yahoos ruining it for everyone.    :wink:
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Offline Stan in SC

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SKS
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2004, 03:12:09 PM »
There are 154 soft point rounds commercially available for the SKS.They are good hunting rounds.It did not say that he had a 20 round clip in the rifle.It said he fired 20 times.That means he probably reloaded once because the SKS holds 10 rounds.Stopping in the middle of a killing spree and reloading speaks of a certain amount of intent to murder on his part.
The story also said he got down from the tree stand and started to leave but then stopped and removed the scope from his rifle and started shooting.
No excuses are allowed for someone who has been in the military and in country for 25 years.He knows darned well what private property meant.
I don't care what his ethnic background was.That's no excuse.
This guy was a sick mind.They think now that there may be some link to a prior killing of a hunter by this same guy due to a small pick up such as he had being spotted near the other killing several years ago.He was in my estimation just a mean nasty type looking for an excuse.
Incidentally the SKS does not meet the modern definition of an assualt rifle.It's too long and not selectable from semi automatic to full automatic fire.The media plays on spin and definitions and in a lot of cases invent their own definitions.
 This case will have it's 15 minutes of fame and chest thumping and blasts by the ani gun nuts.In the same period of time a woman cut off the arms of her baby.Are they going to ban knives also?
 One thing is darn certain.Just as I have gotten in the habit of doing for the past 10 years or so I will not go into the woods without some type of firearm.And that's not just because of humans.There are many situations involving animals where personal protection is necessary.My favorite "walk in the woods" gun will cover most any situation from snakes to wild dogs.It is a .22 Hornet over .410 shotgun survival weapon.Light,handy and enough power to handle anything I might meet.A 3" .410 slug is a good load.
 My fervent hope is that this present situation will die down soon with no adverse effects for legitimate hunters,shooters and gun owners which is what 99 and 44/100ths per cent of us are.
The more I listen,the more I hear....and vice versa.

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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2004, 03:41:19 PM »
FWIW, there is no mention of 20 rounds being fired in the Probable Cause statement. It did say Vang reloaded with 5 or 6 bullets at one time so he had at least a 5 round magazine, could have been a 10 or even a 20 round magazine for all we know with all the variants of the SKS available. The PC statement did say he had a Saiga SKS.

http://www.savvysurvivor.com/saiga_rifles.htm

http://www.sksman.com/access/saiga.html
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Duce

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This is just incredible!!!
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2004, 04:23:15 PM »
Folks: The common fixed mag for an SKS is a 10 rounder, another very common mag is the Chinese 20 rounder, easily found at any of the bigger gunshows. Less common is the 5 rounder that is flush with the bottom of the stock when closed.
The bottom line is that how many rounds the rifle held is of little or no importance. If it's true that he removed the scope then started shooting, there's no doubt in my mind that he was out to kill someone. What troubles me (not trying to find fault) is that so many were caught off guard.
Guess there's a very hard lesson there. Still Troubled  :( <>< Duce:
What ever you'll put up with, is exactly what you'll get!!!!!

Offline ironglow

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This is just incredible!!!
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2004, 04:42:06 PM »
Is this guy a Muslim?
    Sounds a lot like those two clowns that did all that murdering with the Bushmaster around D.C....

   A guy going deer hunting ...completely in camo..no orange or red?

 Yeah sure... I may have been born at night...but it wasn't LAST night!!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)