WHICH CALIBER FOR MEAT RIFLE?

[Mac11700]

The Nosler Partition...is proably the best all around bullet for any caliber made...they open readily and expand great...and hold together thanks to their construction...usually penatrating all the way thru...the 150 grain partiton gold for any of the 30 cal...it would be my choice of bullet...

Mac, agree almost 100% :grin:   I'm partial to heavier bullets and while I recommended the 165, my own choice in the Handi 30-30 would be a 180.  No real good reason for a deer application, just my own preference. :-)

I don't know why the partitions aren't used more in the slower velocity calibers.  Much better penetration and a good wound channel.  Everybody seems to want to kill deer with exploding bullets :eek:

I too like them at a slower velocity...I use the 300 grain protected point partition out of my 1895GS at 2250 fps...and the terminal effects are outstanding...but...given that we are talking about the 30 caliber class...and that also includes the 30-30...the 150 grain partiton...gives the best of both worlds...flatter trajectory and dependable performace....while others may not feel as I do...the last thing I want to worry about when hunting...is if I picked the correct bullet...others work well and have taken game countless number of times...I know...this has been discussed over and over.....but...for all the agravation and trouble and expense that comes with my hunting trips...I use what I know will work under all conditions I hunt in...up close...far away...and if absolutly nessasary...taking a raking shot if needed...and to me ...these are the bullets I'll turn to first...to work up a load...the rest is just iceing on the cake...when I get them to shoot... :wink:

Mac

[Joel]

When I  was living in Va, and hunting around Glouster, I used a 6mm with 100 grain Noslers.  Never shot over 75 yds, so the caliber worked well and the Noslers(these were the old style semi-spitzers which were "harder" than the new ones) didn't destroy much meat.  Since moving up to the central PA mountains 20 years ago, where I hunt the thick woods, the 6mm was replaced by a 8mm, then the 30-40 Krag, and finally the 45-70.  They all worked, but the 45-70 in the Handi just sort of "clicked" with me, and it's taken 22 deer with 24 shots over the years.  All the calibers mentioned are suitable at ranges up to 150 yds; I think it just boils down to which one seems to attract your interest the most.  I still have the 6MM(Ruger #1) and the Krag, and still use them occassionally now that the PA deer limits are more liberal, but the 45/70 is still the one with me on opening day.  Just invested in a new stock, forend spacer/triggerguard, and hammer spur(finally) for it so my liking for this particular rifle/cartridge surely exceeds its monetary "value".

[Mac11700]

Joel:

I know what you mean...the 45-70 is a great round...and it puts deer down with authority...and with certain loadings you can push them out a bit further than the norm for typical " brush" guns...don't get me wrong...I really like the 308 and all the 30 cal loads...and reach for them when ever the range is out past 200 yards...but when it comes to up close and personal...the 45-70 gets the nod...every time...

Mac

[JPH45]

Not to start a flaming contest, but on page 286 of Speers #13 manual describing the 30-40 Krag can be found this statement...

"Loaded with a modern 180 grain soft point bullet (such as the Speer Hot-Cor) the Krag is an exellent deer cartridge out ot 250 yards".

Speer themselves advocate the use of their softer heavier bullets at low velocities for deer hunting, and I suspect that many a deer has filled the freezer after being struck by loads just such as this.

It should be noted that the fastest velocity Speer shows for the 30-40 and 180 grain bullets is a sizzling 2165 fps, about what a 30-30 will do with a 170 grain bullet.

I stand by my statement that there are softer, heavier for caliber bullets made by the bullet manufactuers for applications just such as this. Not every 30 caliber bullet of 180 grains and more was designed to be fired at magnum velocities. Avid readers of gun rag publications these days have been fed a steady diet of the latest greatest super hard bullets because they are also being fed a diet that has them believing that deer have been hardened after being shot all these years with "thutty thutties" and it now require nothing smaller than a 300 RUM to kill one.

Every maker has 180-220 grain 30 caliber bullets that were designed for muzzle velocities of 2000-2400 fps as this is the velocity range which can be expected from cartridges like the 30-40, 300 Savage, 308 and 30-06. I have seen the results firsthand on more than a few occasions, and these bullets kill cleanly and do not destroy meat as badly as 150-165 grian 30 caliber bullets driven at velocities of 2700 fps and greater and generally don't recoil any worse than their high speed light weight brethren.  

Sorry for hijacking your thread BASIC.

[Sourdough]

I own many guns in a wide variety of calibers, 223 to 45-70.  30-30 to .338.  If I had to choose one gun I would get the 30-06.  Best selection of bullets of any caliber made.  Close range White tail, down load and use the 150, or 170gr flat nose bullet designed for the slow speeds of the 30-30.  Fast expansion for low velocity, little damage.  For longer ranges, 100 to 600 yards use a 165 grain boat tail.  I'm partial to head shots, and with my 06 they are easy to make.  I carry an 06 from October to March, and have shot everything from Moose to foxes.  I've even used it to shoot the heads off Grouse and Ptarmigen (at close range).  I used my Handi 30-06 to kill a Moose the 12th of Nov.  One shot in the forehead right above the eyes, with a 180gr Nosler Partition, from 250 yards.  I also carry the 06 when I go to Tennessee and Texas for Whitetail each year.  Ranges can be from 20 yards out.  In west Texas I often make 300 and 400 yard shots.   My Dad and brothers used to complain that I was overgunned for Tennessee whitetails, they all carry 30-30s.  Five years ago we were sitting on my uncles carport drinking tea when we saw a doe walk out into a clearing on the hillside across the hollow.  The doe kept stopping and looking back as she crossed the clearing.  My Dad said there was probably a buck following her.  I went to the truck and got out my 06.  I laid it across the hood of the truck, we quessed it to be about 600 yards.  When the busk walked out I took my first shot, the buck froze.  I had shot too high.  My second shot he stumbled and took off running.  He ran into a clump of ceders, but did not come out.  We sat down and finished our tea, then after about 30 minutes we started over there.  We found him in the ceders.  I had hit him a little high taking out the far lung.  The only meat loss was rib meat, about the size of a silver doller on the entry side, and about the size of a baseball on the exit side.  I had hit a rib on the exit side.  I was using a Sierra 165gr spier point, boat tail bullet in front of IMR 3031.  
 
One good reason to carry the 30-06, is I sometimes get invitations to go hunting with people I meet during my travels. back at their homes.  A few years ago while hunting Mulies in New Mexico with my in-laws, I met a guy from Montana who invited me to stop in at his place on my way back to Alaska to hunt Elk.  While there his brother came up from Wyoming and invited me to go with him for antelope.  The 06 was up to it, scored on both.

[Joel]

Not to start a flaming contest, but on page 286 of Speers #13 manual describing the 30-40 Krag can be found this statement...

"Loaded with a modern 180 grain soft point bullet (such as the Speer Hot-Cor) the Krag is an exellent deer cartridge out ot 250 yards".

Speer themselves advocate the use of their softer heavier bullets at low velocities for deer hunting, and I suspect that many a deer has filled the freezer after being struck by loads just such as this.

It should be noted that the fastest velocity Speer shows for the 30-40 and 180 grain bullets is a sizzling 2165 fps, about what a 30-30 will do with a 170 grain bullet.

I stand by my statement that there are softer, heavier for caliber bullets made by the bullet manufactuers for applications just such as this. Not every 30 caliber bullet of 180 grains and more was designed to be fired at magnum velocities. Avid readers of gun rag publications these days have been fed a steady diet of the latest greatest super hard bullets because they are also being fed a diet that has them believing that deer have been hardened after being shot all these years with "thutty thutties" and it now require nothing smaller than a 300 RUM to kill one.

Every maker has 180-220 grain 30 caliber bullets that were designed for muzzle velocities of 2000-2400 fps as this is the velocity range which can be expected from cartridges like the 30-40, 300 Savage, 308 and 30-06. I have seen the results firsthand on more than a few occasions, and these bullets kill cleanly and do not destroy meat as badly as 150-165 grian 30 caliber bullets driven at velocities of 2700 fps and greater and generally don't recoil any worse than their high speed light weight brethren.  

Sorry for hijacking your thread BASIC.

I'll agree with you.  I shoot the 180 gr Sierra roundnose out of my Krag behind 49 gr of IMR 4831.  Velocity is somewhere between 2165 and 2425 fps depending on which reloading manual you read.  Since it's equipped with a wiliams rear and a lyman sourdough front I don' t hunt with it except in the heavy woods.  Shot 3 deer with it over the years(and reloaded/sighted it in this year), always with the Sierra's and the deer went down quick enough with no bloodshot meat to speak of.....less than when I was loading the 45/70 to 2200 fps with the 300 gr JHP's.  All shots were less than 75 yds.  The Krag has always been considered an excellant cartridge for game up to Elk(from what I've read) due to it's lower velocity tends to give it more time in carcass, and it sheds it's energy more efficiently.  Therefore, even though it's velocity/energy figures are modest, it's a great killer.  Other cartridges that have similar performance have also gained that same reputation, i.e. the 6.5 X 55mm with the 160 gr and the 7 x 57mm with 175's come to mind.

[safetysheriff]

The Nosler Partition...is proably the best all around bullet for any caliber made...they open readily and expand great...and hold together thanks to their construction...usually penatrating all the way thru...the 150 grain partiton gold for any of the 30 cal...it would be my choice of bullet...

Mac, agree almost 100% :grin:   I'm partial to heavier bullets and while I recommended the 165, my own choice in the Handi 30-30 would be a 180.  No real good reason for a deer application, just my own preference. :-)

I don't know why the partitions aren't used more in the slower velocity calibers.  Much better penetration and a good wound channel.  Everybody seems to want to kill deer with exploding bullets :eek:

I'd agree with using a .30-30 bullet of 170 gr's at a velocity of 2600 fps....as Jack O'Connor did when he wanted a deer 'hit with a bomb' out of one of the faster .30 cal's with handloads.    But that's a flat-nosed, readily-expanded bullet by design.    The average 180 gr' spitzer or round-nose is not opened as readily.    It's not designed for that.    

I guess we have a host of opinions here; but I'd still recommend a lighter spitzer-type bullet out of the .308.    To each his own....

[JPH45]

I'm confused SS, why should a 180 spitzer or round nose not open as fast as a flat nosed 170 grainer or even a 150 grain spitzer if it is built just as lightly as either of those, especially if that is what it is designed to do? Fact is that bullet construction and impact velocity are the factors determining expansion, bullet style has nothing to do with expansion. Please understand, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong, just questioning your assumption that a 180 or heavier 30 caliber bullet must nessicarily be a harder bullet than the lighter weight bullets. What are we to make then of bullet manufactuers who recommend that particular bullets in their product line are designed for exactly the kind of performance we are disscussing?

By this kind of reasoning I shouldn't believe Hornady when they tell me that their 150 SST will perform satisfactorly at the reduced muzzle velocities of the 30-30. Afterall, the SST is designed to be started as high as 3000 fps, yet the bullet will expand to nearly twice it's diameter at an impact velocity of only 1700 fps. What changes is how much of the bullet is shed as impact velocity is reduced.

So long as the bullet chosen is designed to operate in the muzzle velocity/impact velcocity it is being used at, what difference will the bullet style make? Heavier spitzer bullets generally have much higer BC's than their flat or roundnose counterparts, and as a result of the combination of their weight and BC retain their velocity/energy over a greater distance, increasing the useable range of the rifle.

Often times, the higher velocity of a lighter bullet can equal the gains the heavier bullet can offer. This is especially true with designs like the SST and the Scirroco where the ogive is longer than the Krupp models account for. This is part of how these bullets fly flatter than their numbers say they should. Bonded cores have also changed how bullets perform on impact.

15 and 20 years ago the approach of using heavier bullets as velocity increased was a necessity of bullet construction science of the time. The revolution of handgun bullet construction driven by the FBI performance tests/standards of the late eighties spilled over into rifle bullet construction and has radically changed the bullets available to us today.

Sierra is the only manufactuer that currently does not offer a bonded core bullet, theirs are the old style cup and core bullets and with them I would strongly suggest the old practice of increasing bullet weight as velocity increases. In my expansion tests I had 3 cup/core seperations with their 150 grain SPBT (Game King) in wet newsprint, and penetration of less than 20" of material (16" avg) This at a muzzle velocity of 2330 fps from my 30-30 Handi, impact at 65 yards. The Hornady 150 SST gave equal penetration but expands to .55-.6" and leaves a shank approximately 3/8-7/16" long.  No sign of cup/core seperation whatever. This at a velocity of 2360 fps.

Moral of the story is a bullet is not a bullet, is not a bullet.

[Mac11700]

There's nothing wrong with either train of thought...both the lighter bullet and the heavier bullet will expand if it's designed to...it boils down to a personal choice...that's all...

Mac

[safetysheriff]

I'm confused SS, why should a 180 spitzer or round nose not open as fast as a flat nosed 170 grainer or even a 150 grain spitzer if it is built just as lightly as either of those, especially if that is what it is designed to do? Fact is that bullet construction and impact velocity are the factors determining expansion, bullet style has nothing to do with expansion.

By this kind of reasoning I shouldn't believe Hornady when they tell me that their 150 SST will perform satisfactorly at the reduced muzzle velocities of the 30-30. Afterall, the SST is designed to be started as high as 3000 fps, yet the bullet will expand to nearly twice it's diameter at an impact velocity of only 1700 fps. What changes is how much of the bullet is shed as impact velocity is reduced.

So long as the bullet chosen is designed to operate in the muzzle velocity/impact velcocity it is being used at, what difference will the bullet style make? Heavier spitzer bullets generally have much higer BC's than their flat or roundnose counterparts, and as a result of the combination of their weight and BC retain their velocity/energy over a greater distance, increasing the useable range of the rifle.

Often times, the higher velocity of a lighter bullet can equal the gains the heavier bullet can offer. This is especially true with designs like the SST and the Scirroco where the ogive is longer than the Krupp models account for. This is part of how these bullets fly flatter than their numbers say they should. Bonded cores have also changed how bullets perform on impact.

15 and 20 years ago the approach of using heavier bullets as velocity increased was a necessity of bullet construction science of the time. The revolution of handgun bullet construction driven by the FBI performance tests/standards of the late eighties spilled over into rifle bullet construction and has radically changed the bullets available to us today.

Sierra is the only manufactuer that currently does not offer a bonded core bullet, theirs are the old style cup and core bullets and with them I would strongly suggest the old practice of increasing bullet weight as velocity increases. In my expansion tests I had 3 cup/core seperations with their 150 grain SPBT (Game King) in wet newsprint, and penetration of less than 20" of material (16" avg) This at a muzzle velocity of 2330 fps from my 30-30 Handi, impact at 65 yards. The Hornady 150 SST gave equal penetration but expands to .55-.6" and leaves a shank approximately 3/8-7/16" long.  No sign of cup/core seperation whatever. This at a velocity of 2360 fps.

Moral of the story is a bullet is not a bullet, is not a bullet.

You covered a lot of ground JPH' and I'll address some of it before logging off.    The Sierra's are relatively quick-expanding bullets.    That's been their reputation at least.    But, bullet style does affect bullet expansion since it goes hand in hand with bullet construction and impact velocities.....with form following function.    The three are inter-twined.  It not only relates to flat-nosed bullets for safety in tubular magazines but relates to a flat nose offering more impact resistance while impacting at a lower velocity -- usually -- out of the .30-30.    The 'average' 180 gr' spitzer in .30 cal' will not open as quickly at its somewhat reduced impact velocity as will the 'average' 150 gr' bullet at "normal hunting ranges".   The 150 gr' bullets greater impact velocity will cause more bullet upset -- generally.    That generality can help some of the guys on this forum have a greater chance at tagging their own deer on public hunting land...which I post about rather frequently.     Then too, I am speaking about what I consider to be white-tailed deer bullets.     There are those of us who do not buy premium bullets for deer.    

As for Hornady, they have done their homework, I would guess, with their SST's......partly because at one time they hadn't done enough homework before marketing their A-Max which came apart during some benchrest competitions before reaching the target!!!    I am a Hornady fan and advocate....but their bullet failures in such an important product line cost them some long-term negative publicity.    You can read about it some of the time on www.long-range.com.     But, the SST is a premium bullet that some on this forum cannot afford.

I could be wrong but the FBI's testing and others in handgun bullets is not, from what I can see and from what I've read, a factor in rifle bullet design.    The 158 gr' lead hollow-point out of a .38 special became the "FBI round" some years back because it expanded so well at .38 Spec' velocities since it had no copper jacket.    That bullet will kill a man quickly, coming out of a 2"-barreled snub-nose, even if he's wearing a coat!    But....that's an age-old design, relatively speaking.

The fact is that while handgun bullets have, in some instances, been made more reliable, in others they have failed miserably.    Do a search on www.findarticles.com putting in Massad Ayoob's name and see what they've learned the hard way about 147 gr' (jacketed?) bullets out of the 9 mm.     Too many failures to stop their quarry and the police/highway patrols had to go back to lighter bullets to get expansion.....at the cost of some lives.    Once again....a lightly-constructed quarry is more quickly dispatched with a faster-moving more quickly-opening bullet.    

I believe that ballisticians do have an ongoing problem with producing various bullets that will work at widely-varying velocities, and that the writers who speak about such things are telling the truth.    It jives with what I've learned from friends who've hunted deer for many years down in West Virginia and elsewhere -- where all kinds of cartridges have been used, with all kinds of bullets over the years.    

Take care, JPH'

SS'

[BASIC]

Thankyou all for your response.I guess theres no one best answer.It might be best for me to wait to see where we end up moving.Though if they made one in .35 Rem,I'g be sold.I'm going to post a question about the best place to move to on the Off Topic board.Thankyou all again,BASIC.

[.308]

.45-70.....

[Sourdough]

To answer a few questions about why a flat nosed bullet opens faster than a round nose or spier point.  They don't if they have the same weight jacket.  But in the .30 caliber bullets they make flat nosed bullets just for the 30-30 that have lighter jackets for faster expansion, since the 30-30 is slower than the 30-06, .308, or .300.   They work real good in a Contender Pistol too.