Author Topic: 45/70 for elk?  (Read 2497 times)

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Offline henry1

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45/70 for elk?
« on: December 03, 2004, 02:15:55 AM »
Hey there everybody, was thinkin about geting a 45/70 if i got enough money for Christmas. What i want to know is, is the 45/70 a good load for elk? I know that your not suposed to shoot real hot loads in the lever guns but what about single shots? Fill my head with info about the NEF 45/70. Thanks guys for all info that you share, I appricate it. :grin: Hank.
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Offline handirifle

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2004, 03:45:35 AM »
Henry1
The Marlin, Winchester and H&R guns all take loads of the same level.  ALL are more than suffecient to drop an elk.

The popular saying on this board and many others of the 45-70 (in modern guns) is that you can load it from "mild to wild" and that is no exageration.  The key is a modern rifle, like the current Marlin or NEF.

Read these accounts of Garrett 45-70 ammo to see for yourself.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/reviews2.asp
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Offline v8r

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2004, 05:55:55 AM »
In the old west it killed buffalo just fine,I am sure it will probably smack a elk fairly hard.
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Offline Badnews Bob

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2004, 06:45:18 AM »
.45-70 will drop anything walking on this planet. Thats useing its original loadings, Use modern componets and its even more effective. 8)
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Offline fastvfr

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2004, 10:55:00 AM »
You betcha.

In an 8 lb. rifle, it's deadly on BOTH ends with the "Wild" loads!
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Offline JPH45

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2004, 12:49:53 PM »
Just have to remember it is a short range proposition. 100-150 yards on the outside. Layne Simpson in a Shooting Times article says he shot a caribou at 265 yards with a 45-70. I don't doubt he did, but I don't think Layne Simpson is an average shot on game either. In the article he addresses the extensive practice he did to be able to make clean long range shots with the 45-70's rainbow trajectory.  He was using a Remington Rolling Block out of the custom shop. Elk and caribou run about the same weight and size wise, be sure of yourself and be sure of your shot and the 45-70 will reward you with a freezer full of meat.
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Offline quickdtoo

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2004, 01:20:46 PM »
I have to disagree with ya there, JPH45....the black powder .45-70 and the plinkin loads that most folks shoot at trap door levels have the rainbow trajectory but modern upper level 2 loads are not so limited. The PMC 350gr load has easy 200yd potential. In my handi, zeroed 3" high at 100yds, it is only 5" low at 200 yrds and has over 1500ft/lbs energy at 200yds and is accurate too with a 3"-4" group, plenty good enough for animals up to elk size.

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Offline marv

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45-70 for Elk
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2004, 01:35:15 PM »
My opinion, 45-70 level 2 load is fine for elk Just put the pill in the nright place, Meat in the freezer. If I got a chance to elk hunt probly what I use.
 Shoot stright Marv. :D  :D

Offline handirifle

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2004, 02:09:43 PM »
I've said it before and I'll say it again.  It really bothers me that people place a limit of the cartridges capablity on the particular guy using it.  If some guy cannot hit a pie plate at 200yds with a 7MM Mag doers that make it less than a 200yds caliber?  I don't think anyone would say that.

So wh, when buffalo were killed at much longer ranges than 200yds, with BP loads, would someone say "it is only a 150-200yds cartridge"?

I say let a fellow know how powerful the round is and let HIM LEARN the trajectory and make up his own mind how powerful it is.  If a hunter can judge range, or has a rangefinder (they are quite common nowdays) it is real easy to likk an elk way beyond 150yds, IF you can shoot.

Don't limit the caliber based purely on trajectory!  Someone new to the 45-70 may actually think it would not kill the elk if he shot it at 250yds.  Just because someone is new to the 45-70 doesn't mean he cannot judge distance or trajectory.

There, I'm off my soapbox now.
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Offline Hildy

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2004, 02:24:10 PM »
Amen to what handirifle said!

People shoot animals beyond 1000 yards with larger calibers that don't have near the energy a 45-70 has at 200 yards than they do at 1000 yards. Plus the bullet has already dropped several hundred inches at that range (1000y). So I think the 45-70 is plenty capable at longer ranges as long as the shooter can shoot and knows where to put the bullet.

Offline James B

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2004, 09:00:57 AM »
Buffalo were commonly taken out to 600 yards with the old black powder loads. Those guys knew thier rifles and what thet would do.
shot placement is everything.

Offline handirifle

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2004, 09:58:00 AM »
There is an article in Rifle Shooter magazine where Craig Boddington is talking about "enough rifle".  There is a picture of his daughter in Austraila that shot a water buffalo with one shot from a 405 Win.  I looed further in the article and lo and behold, it was a 300gr slug at 2200fps.

Some of you 45-70 fans had easily duplicated that 300gr load, and gone well beyond it with heavier bullets.

I'd bet a water buffalo is at least as hard to drop as an elk.
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Offline Cottonwood

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2004, 10:04:35 AM »
If you had but one RIFLE and that was a 45-70 you could hunt ALL your game ever with this one rifle.  The 45-70 is not distructive to game meat like many other bullets are.  You can select what loads you want by old standards or supersonic type that are more condusive for letting your shoulder know what smacked it.  :eek:

The trouble today is that we have so many cartridges and rifles to choose from.  What this one guy, or another likes we let dictate our taste and wants.

I made a choice for my elk hunting trip because of given a choice... my choice was wrong because I thought flatter shooting was better  :oops:

Now understanding what some have said about hunting bison out to 600 yards... yes that was done, but not with a barrel length of 22"  Usually the hunting rifles had much longer barrels the shortest being 26" and the longest being 34"  those single shot rifles were the Springfield Trapdoor, Remington Rolling Block and the good Ol Reliable C. Sharps.  The old carbines were 22" though but that was because they were made that way for horseman and not infantry.

My next Buffalo Classic will have its barrel cut and crowned at 26" as it will swing better in the woods

Just remember when using a 45-70 for those long shots proper sights must be used, wether it is a Lawarnce Buckhorn Ladder Sight out on the barrel or a Vernier Tang Sight, Marbles Peep sight etc or otherwise you will be holding so much over your game it aint funny.  Having used vernier tang sights with the front globe allows you to look across the front sight while still looking at your target (game).

We can talk this all day long and then some....  :grin:

You just can't go wrong with a 45-70 bar none!

Offline handirifle

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2004, 01:56:16 PM »
Montanan
Yes I made the same choice by carrying a 30-06.  I'm sure it is more than capable on elk (don't know, never got a shot) but a lot of the area we ended up hunting I could have used any gun.

So now I'm working up a Paco (www.leverguns.com) load for my 375 Win lever and it will go with me next time, and be my main carry gun.
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Offline JPH45

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2004, 03:39:51 PM »
Well I guess I got my lunch ate on that one. For the record I would like to point out that I did use as an example a documented shot on game the size and weight of elk that was taken well beyond the range I consider to be short range. I also don't think there is in any way a fair comparison to the buffalo hunters of old and what we may run into in todays game feilds.

Buffalo roamed the plains in the millions, depending on the source, 6 to 15 million animals at time of the continental railroad (1860ish?) Buffalo hunters would shoot between 40 and 60 animals a day. The standard practice was to gut shoot a cow who would then begin to bellow and create a ruckus, and while she was carrying on, other cows would gather round, only to be shot. One of the reasons the buffalo hunters were so devastating to the herds. This is one described method. Another method, quite similar was to set up and head shoot them, an animal that simply dropped didn't spook the herd. The idea with this tactic being to set up far enough out that the gunshot was more like thunder to the animals (At least 250 yards)

When was the last time anyone saw a herd of buffalo that could be shot at as if at target practice? For that matter, when was the last time any of us took an animal in the field thinking that this was only the first for the day?
More likely we take what ever shot is offered, be it 50 or 200 yards, knowing it may be the only one of the season

Yeah, there were a number of buffs killed with the 45-70, but plenty more were killed with the likes of the 50-70 and the 50-90, more commonly known as the 50 Sharps, which was considered the premier buffalo chambering. I guess kinda like a 300 Weatherby to a 30-06. Buffalo Bill Cody used a Springfield Trapdoor in 50-70, he nicknamed the rifle Lucreca Borgia (bad spelling)

There is probably as much myth about the 45-70 as fact. I grew up with a Springfield Trapdoor, it was in fact the first centerfire I ever shot. It has a long and illustrious history, and with modern loadings it is as much or more rifle than one might ever need, but it ain't no laser beam killing everything in it's path.

It should also be noted that the white hunter John Taylor dispised the 405 Winchester, (compared earlier to the 45-70) claiming it to be underpowered for dangerous game.

Personally, I think the 45-70 survives, not because it is a great cartridge, but it's fans are vocal and simply continue to multiply, Besides, there is something magic about shoving a chamber full of a case as long and big around as your finger that throws a chunk of lead the size of your thumb. That doesn't make it a great cartridge, just one emmensly popular and steeped in nostalgia.

Understand too that I am working on the other end of 45-70 magic. I'm pushing a pure lead example of Lee's 405 Hollow point with 15 grains of Unique to the astounding velocity of 1170 fps. I almost never see deer beyond 50 yards, and if a 44 Magnum 265 grainer at 1275 will kill 'em, this 45-70 load ought to just up and slap the "runaway" right out of 'em.

Even loaded hot, I still consider the 45-70 to be a short range proposition. Work at 200 yards and beyond is the perview of cartridges like the 270, 30-06 etc. There is a reason these overshadow the 45-70, and always will. Just how I see it.
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Offline handirifle

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2004, 08:38:03 PM »
JPH
Well spoken and for the most part I agree with ya.  It is up to the hunter and for someone PLANNING on taking shots at 250yds + I would suggest something flatter shooting, mainly for the critters sake.

I don't know that I could accuratly field judge the difference between 350 and 400yds.  At those ranges it would be a total miss to go either way using a 45-70, no matter how it's loaded.

Power wise, like I said, I doubt anyone would pass on a 50yd shot with a 44Mag  but 50 IS a LOT different than 400.  Nowadays when most hunters/writers talk about the range of  rifle it is a combination of point blank trajectory and power.  No, I doubt we'll ever see a hunting situation like the buffalo hunters did.

I'm pushing my 375 Win to hopefully end up with a 250yd round under those parameters, but we'll see.
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Offline gwhilikerz

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2004, 08:39:50 AM »
I think the 45-70 is a terrific cartridge.  I can remember as a young lad we would gather around the shooting bench in the back yard whenever Dad would break out his trapdoor. We would joke that he could fire the shot, sit back and enjoy reading the paper and a cup of coffee, then watch the target get smacked.  But it always seemed to do the job. I gotta get one! :grin:

Offline TOMMYY01

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2004, 09:21:41 AM »
If and when I get a chance to boar or bear hunt, I will use the 405 gr. coreloks :shock:  Mine is set up for 50 yds. and I've got it sighted in with 300 coreloks now.( using the iron sights)I'm not a spring chicken anymore and when I squeeze the trigger, it is time for the animal to fall down :lol: I've never regretted getting the 45-70 and hope that I can drop a deer before the end of the year with it. :biggun:
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Offline henry1

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45/70 for elk?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2004, 05:59:11 PM »
cool, tahtnks a bunch guys I realy appriciate it. you were a lot of help. Hank.
dont pee down my back and tell me its raining
if my guns were my children theyd be incredibly spoiled
the mountian has got its own way, pillgram
ther's many a slip twix the cup and the lip
Life member NAHC
Henry
hunter8734@yahoo.com
Looking for pdo