The original big bore handguns

[madbadger]

Guys, I don't know where else to post this so I'm hoping you can help...

I'm off on another handgun tangent and I'm interested in learning as much as I can about the large pre-Revolutionary war flintlock "horse" pistols.  These were large pistols, usually with a 10" to 12" barrel with calibers usually starting at .54 and I've seen written reference somewhere to some as large as .72

I have the hots to do some medium-sized game hunting with one of these antiques.  

Can anyone steer me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance,

MadBadger

[The Shrink]

Mad

All of my reading suggests that they were not intended nor used for hunting.  They were for close in defense when you'd already fired your rifle and another indian was closing in with a knife.  They are a very close range weapon, on the order of feet, not yards.  

That being said, how good a stalker or caller are you?

Wayne the Shrink

[jgalar]

I have a 50 caliber handgun. 50 grains of 3F only pushes a roundball at around 800 fps. Not enough power for much other than small game.

[scotjute]

I've got a Lyman Plains Pistol.  Its accurate out to 35 yds.  Haven't tried it further.  It might be good out to 50 yds.   Due to the low powder charge and hence low velocity, would image that any animals would need to be dog size or smaller.

[madbadger]

In running the ballistics (I know, I know its not the same as in the woods, but it helps provide some basis to go on) I would agree that a .50 caliber is too light - which is why my post is regarding calibers beginning at .54 and - preferably much higher.

I know this may be a touchy post and before anyone gets riled up, let me give some background.  I hunt on my land, where I've been hunting for over 20 years.  I know the land intimately.  I know the game habits intimately.  I only still-hunt, and for the most part use either a recurve bow or a revolver.  I'm no stranger to getting within 25 yards to deer, turkey & etc on foot.  This is how I learned to hunt and after 20 years, I'm pretty good - but not nearly good enough.  This is what I enjoy about hunting...seeing how close I can get and still maintain a good shooting situation.  9 times out of 10 within 25 yards still doesn't mean anything if you don't have the right shot.

With that background hopefully satisfying everyone that I'm not a "stunt" hunter....again, it's a matter of proximity, mass and relative speed.  In running some numbers, a .62 caliber ball (~359 grains) moving at ~600 fps (at the target as I'm guessing 700 fps muzzle velocity).  Note - I don't know how quickly a roundball sheds velocity - somebody help me.  I'm assuming it will be doing at least 600 fps at my range limit of 30 yards.  Plugging this in to the Thornily Stopping Power (which calculates minimum energy necessary to cleanly harvest game under all conditions), yields a TSP of 73.  Thornily, from practical culling experience in the US and Africa categorizes the typical whitetail as needing a value of 50 TSP for a clean harvest in all situations.  Using the same performance data in the Taylor Knock Out formula yields a TKO of 19.  

My game proven Freedom Arms .44 Special (loaded as Keith did) yields a Thornily TSP of 69 and a TKO of 16.......

So what gives?  Why, under appropriate conditions and limitations, would a .62 caliber or larger flintlock handgun not be suitable for deer?  What am I missing?

MadBadger

[filmokentucky]

My .62 caliber smooth bore gets 790 f.p.s. out of a 12 inch barrel. THis is using a 324 grain ball over 50 grains of ffg. It might kill a deer, but you'd have to be very close.
     People have taken deer with Walker Colts. Here you can get a ball moving out at over 1300 f.p.s. You can stuff 60 grains of fffg into a Walker
with no difficulty. And, you get a quick follow-up shot if you need it.
    It might be interesting to build a single shot pistol specifically for hunting. Say a 15 inch barrel in .54 caliber using a stiff charge of fffg. The Walker burns 60 grains in a 9 inch barrel so you could probably use a really potent charge. You'd have a half ounce ball moving out at a pretty good velocity. This seems like it might be worth a try.

[The Shrink]

Mad

I agree, you'd need somebody who can give you the numbers, but big round balls shed velocity very quickly.  I think you'd be almost as challenged if you wanted to hunt deer with a throwing ax or knife!  You not only need to think of impact velocity but also is there enuf inertia left for adequate penetration of a ball that big?  

It seems just a little too close to throwing rocks to me!

Wayne

[MOGorilla]

First, I will state that I am not a hunter.  I love firearm designs that are not of the 20th or 21st century.  Any other era and I am there.  I can appreciate hunters as most of my friends and family are avid hunters.  I love shooting the old style guns to see how accurate I can make them, or what I can tweek to improve this or that.  However, I do feel that we owe it to the wildlife to ensure they dont' suffer needlessly.  I have a friend who was excellent with an Atlatl (spear thrower).  He decided, even though it was against the law, to hunt a deer on his land with it.  He caught one broadside from 15 yards.  It pierced the lungs just behind the front leg and honestly I don't think it suffered any more than if he had used a compound bow other than the head could have been better than a straight arrowhead, but it took off and he tracked it for about a 1/2 mile before it dropped.   He felt guilty that his pride in his craft lead him to a bad decision.  I feel if someone is comfortable with their ability to dispatch the animal effectively, go for it, but make sure their isn't a wounded one suffering needlessly.  My $0.02.   That said, Madabadger, I would love to hear more about the dragoon pistols.  I no longer own any front stuffer rifles, but have longed for a big bore horse pistol.  Let us know more about those.

[filmokentucky]

A Harper's Ferry Model 1855 horse pistol, caliber .58, when loaded with 40 grains of fffg moves a round ball out at 846 f.p.s. for an energy figureof 442 ft. lbs. Not too shabby.
   A charge of 60 grains of ffg sends the same projectile scooting along at 975 f.p.s and raises energy to 587 ft. lbs. Better.
   A Minie ball weighing 525 grains driven by 60 grains of ffg goes 802 f.p.s. and produces 750 ft.lbs. Switching to a like VOLUME, 60 grains of Pyrodex P sends the Minie out at 912 f.p.s. and gives 970 ft. lbs. of energy.
   The barrel length is 12 inches and the gun is of percussion persuasion. It
 has a detachable stock so that it can be used as a carbine. The above ballistic information comes from Sam Fadala's book "The Black Powder Handgun.
    So, it  seems as if a little more barrel length and a heavier powder charge would give a viable hunting pistol...recoil aside.

[Ramrod]

madbadger, I agree, it seems that a .62 cal smoothebore is easily enough for deer. The only hitch might be accurracy. The dragoons usually had no rear sight, some had no sights at all. Filmokentucky has an excellent compromise, the .58 is plenty of gun, and the 1855 at least has front and rear sights.
That being said, I've always had an itch for a .69 flinter with regulation buck and ball load!

[filmokentucky]

The trick might be in getting a 15 inch length of barrel with the proper twist. I seem to recall that pistols need a faster twist than a rifle of the same bore. Not sure about that though. But a .54 or .58 caliber pistol with a 15 or 15 1/2 inch barrel and seventy grains of fffg should get the job done out to 50 yards. Might have to try building one myself.

[willysjeep134]

I have chrony'd .454 round balls coming out of my "Pietta 58' remington Buffalo" revolver with a 12 inch barrel at just over 1000FPS. That is with 30 grains of fffg. I would trust this for deer within normal archery ranges, as I can break clay targets sitting on a fence 50 yards away with it.

I also have a 20 gauge flint lock "tower" pistol a neighbor gave me. I have never fired it, but I have researched it a little.

FOr many years during the fur trade pistols were made of the same caliber as rifles so the trapper only had to carry one size of ball. They could get all the way up to .69 caliber  and down to .55 caliber normally.

These very pistols were sometimes employed in horseback hunting of buffalo. If you have ever seen an old Edison movie of Buffalo Bill's Wild West he even has a mock buffalo hunt firing blanks  from his navy colts at running animals from horseback. I would believe it. If you can kill a critter with a bow and arrow, a big  roundball should do the trick too.

Energy wise, I would say an old hose pistol on the 55+ caliber range could kill a deer with a chest shot, but only within mabey 35 yards. I would also say that if you are using a smooth bore pistol, as most of them were, you might want to consider a buckshot load, if you can get one to pattern well.

Actually, I should put that tower together and chrony it one of these days.

Edit: This thread got me really enthused. I grabbed the assorted pistol parts from under the couch and got some lock screws from the hardware store, bought some buckshot and flints, and spent the afternoon in the workshop ajusting screws with a file.

Now that it works, sort of, I had some fun down at the range. I made up a load of 45 grains of Pyrodex P and 6 00 buck pellets, and I can barely hit a grocery bag from 15 yards. Oh, and I found out that it is a .69 bore, not 20 gauge. May not be too accurate, but it;s such a blast to shoot I want to get some practice in with it and give it a real workout. I'll chrony it one of these days when I can be sure I'm good enough with it to not ventilate the chronograph.

[willysjeep134]

Yet another update:

I took my flintlock pistol out with me as a second shot during black powder season. I had my .50 caplock rifle for the first shot. I dropped a doe in her tracks, but she was still alive. I shot at her head from 10 feet with a 6 pelled OO buckshot load from the pistol. Only one buckshot even hit her, between the ear and eye. It probably wasn't necisairy, but it was interesting.

If I were to use the pistol only for deer I would definantly go with a roundball. The buckshot speads too much and has too little energy to penetrate very much. A .690 roundball on the other hand might be able to penetrate the chest (or skull) a little more reliably. My buckshot load for the deer consisted of 45 grains of ffG Elephant, a scrap of brown paper, a lard soaked cotton ball, 6 OO buckshot, then another square of paper to hold them in place.


As an aside, I also tried to make a birdshot load for my flintlock. I took 7/8 ounce of No 4 chilled lead shot and used a greased cotton ball for a wad. I used 40 grains of FFg Elephant for this load too. From 15 yards it patterned sort of sparse, but well enough for close in grouse mabey. I might go with more shot next time. The cottonball seems to make a reasonably good wad for the few shots I'll take with it.

I am looking into getting a .690 roundball mould for this pistol. Mabey I will get to see how a roundball performs at the range.

[BillinOregon]

Madbadger, considering your experience and the place and conditions under which you hunt, I think you might very well be the sort of hunter who could humanely dispatch a deer with a flint horse pistol. I believe most of the originals were smoothbores and designed indeed for close combat. Accuracy and not killing power of a .62 or .69 would be my first concern, as an unrifled bore and no rear sight would be a handicap even at 25 yards, I suspect. That's not to say it can't be done -- just that it would be a challenge. A purpose-built flint horse pistol for hunting would change the equation in your favor. With a rifled bore of .54 or more, a well-tuned lock and a front and rear sight, I think you would have a serious deer pistol for within 35-40 yards. With a conical in a .54 or .58 and a patched round ball in the larger bores, I don't believe killing power would be an issue at those ranges.
I have a Lyman Plains pistol in .54 on the way. These come with a 1:30 twist barrel, and others on this forum have shown the accuracy they can achieve. When I get mine up and running, I will chronograph it with conicals and crunch some numbers.

[BillinOregon]

Just looked up some RB ballistics in the old Lyman ML Handbook.
Lyman shows a .735 RB (575 grains) at 700 fps/648 foot pounds at the muzzle slowing to 670/594 fpe at 25 yards and 642/545 fpe at 50 yards. I doubt that ball is going to bounce off any whitetail at 50 yards.
In comparison, Lyman shows a .535 roundball at 900fps/414 fpe at the muzzle, 839/360 at 25 yards and 737/316 at 50 yards -- ballistics similar to the .45 colt factory load but cutting a bigger hole.

[leverfan]

It would be fun to hunt with a flintlock pistol, but Washington state law doesn't allow it.  You folks are lucky.  I can pack a muzzle loading pistol, or cap and ball revolver during muzzle loader season, but I can't legally shoot large game with them.  In fact, you can't even put a finishing shot into an animal with anything other than your muzzle loading rifle during that hunting season.

[mec]

I looked for a ballistic coeficient for the .530 lead ball and the closest thing I could find was for a 50 cal. I believe the diffference in the (low) numbers, If there is any will be insignificant.  Here's what you might expect over the short ranges you describe.

Zero Yards 600 fps  Energy 181 ft pounds
25 Yards     574                 165
50 yards     549                 151
75 yards     526                 139

So, If you determine that a velocity of 600 fps is sufficient to penetrate  your deer,   there should be no practical loss of velocity at 25-35 yards.

600 fps should be obtainable in most .54 pistols  We got middle 500s with a 54 cal Aston Johnson using 30 grains of ffg.  It should be possible to boost this velocity to 600 fps without over-straining something like a harpers ferry or other large bore martial pistol.  You might find yourself using more powder for the same results with a flint lock as they tend to bleed off of the motive force through the vent.

Attempting to significantly increase velocities poses the danger of cracking the stock because of recoil and torque.  I'm not sure when this would occur with a given pistol. 50 caliber Lyman Plains pistols and the 54 calibers use 40 to 50 grains of powder and do record velocities in the 7-900 fps ranges.  On poster said that he split several stocks on a 54 with the recommended 50 grain charge.

[willysjeep134]

I've been putting some pretty stiff charges through my flinter with no apparent ill effects yet. Before I started making heavy loads though I did a little research. Some folks on the net claim these old dixie pistols like mine have welded breeches. I can see a little bit of the threading peeking out on mine, so I am sure it is threaded. It is also welded at the top to keep the plug from unscrewing. The weld also looks like it holds the tang on the barrel.

Anyways, I made a wad punch out of a piece of 3/4" water pipe. It throws a .85 cal cardboard disk. I soak these in melted lard and let them cool. I can push one in the bore with the rammer, it makes an almost perfect shallow cup.

I will load up to 55 grains of ffg Elephant, then a card, then half of a lard-soaked cotton ball, then another card, then 7/8 ounce of birdshot, then another card. It patterns pretty well. With fffg for priming it has a pretty fast lock time. The stiff spring is starting to loosen up a little, so my flints are lasting longer and I can almost cock it with one hand. I was thinking grouse would be a good target for this setup, but I haven't had the chance yet.

If I get a roundball mould I think I'll yet put some shots through the chrony. I'm afraid to do it with multiple projectile loads because I would need to be very close for all of the shot to miss the chrony body, and the smoke would keep it from reading accurately at that range.