Why do they knock the Handi?

[Broken-arrow]

:?   Whoops, Last reply was from Broken-arrow, didn't know Robin-hood logged in. ( He placed a post in the deer-hunting forum about the nice doe he took this evening )   :grin:  BTW , he used my $300 Savage thats been filling my freezer for many years.

[Longcruise]

Another reason is ignorance...I'm sure you've seen some of the bad-mouthing that's gone on about the Handi.at other places...but here we know these fine little rifles for what their worth

The ignorance is coming from a few disgruntled people on the other sites I'm talking about...the ones I'm speaking of are those who really don't give any explanation of "Why" they can't get their rifles to shoot

most of the problems we have incountered with our Handi's can be corrected with a few simple solutions...and until a person is aware of this...he/she is ignorant of the solutions..

you need to give the badmouthing a rest before you either get moderated or booted

So as I said, the criticism comes for various reasons, but they all add up to ignorance, elitism, and preconcieved prejudice.

Maybe that explains why one finds mainly Handi lovers here!! :-D

I too have a love hate relationship with the Handis.  Between myself and my kids we have or have had five handis.  One, a 30-30 was never shot and I believe it would have shot but was given to a young relative as a birthday gift and I don't believe it has been shot yet.  I have a twin to that 30-30 that I like very well.  It's not an moa shooter but it shoots nicely and will do all that the 30-30 would normally be asked to do.  

Then, there are the other three!!!  Two 223s and a 308.  The 308 was the worst of the bunch and resisted all the standard cures.  One of the two 223s has been finally brought to the 2ish moa grade after much fiddling with loads etc and most of the standard cures.  The other 223 is a synthetic super light 223 and it shoots about like the other 223 did at first but this one has not been tweaked at all mainly because my grandson is perfectly happy with it as is regardless of how it shoots.

Considering what a 223 is normally used for, 2 moa is not good enough.  In a perfect world it is a 6 inch gun at 300 yards, but we all know that guns that shoot 2moa off the bench are not going to deliver 2moa under real world conditions (best case scenario in my real world would be shooting sticks).

So, IMO, Broken Arrow was generous when he called it at 50/50 since my own exp has been more like a 25% chance of a shooter!!

Fred M has directed me to his web page with some interesting poop on making the Handi shoot and I may delve into that with the 223 after the new year and when there is time.  Still, No other rifles have ever performed across the board/out of the box/etc. as poorly for me as the Handis' have.  That's three out of four that did not make the grade.  I've only had one other rifle that was as persistently bad as the three Handis' and that was a Savage 7-08 that I'm going to give one more chance with a re-stock and bedding job along with a lapping of the lugs.

So, IMO the Handis' are in general not very well made.  Many owners report great results with them and are regular posters on this board.  OTOH, I expect that there may be just as many, maybe more, who got poor results with the Handi and simply put them aside and certainly don't visit the NEF sites regularly.

You can call me a basher if you like, but I'm just stating the facts as I know them personally.  There are many on this board who I'v gotten to know and like and respect inlcuding those quoted above.  Still, why the overly personal knee jerk reaction to negative statements about the Handi?  Especially when those statements address the original question of the member who started the thread!

[Broken-arrow]

Look at how many times the word "ignorance" was used.  Now ask yourself who is bad-mouthing who here? Can you say DENIAL .  :lol:

[quickdtoo]

Still looking to buy my first handi rifle. Went to another local dealer here today to enquire about them. Sure seem to be getting the "stay away" story from them concerning these guns. Granted I believe the "you get what you pay for"  line on products, but sure have enjoyed reading all the positives about them here on this forum, so I feel they should be a respectable weapon. So then does most everyone here give a thumbs up on the handi rifles. And do you feel some gun dealers have a negative biase towards them due to cost,quality, oe whatever? Taz

Tazimna,

Do a www.google.com search for NEF Handi rifle, you'll get lots of hits on forums from shooters like yourself that want to know more about the handis and replies from handi owners. Here are just a few of I found...
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=000751&p=

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000613

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=003452

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=006092&p=

http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=278920&postid=3250364


http://www.coyotegods.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000078.html


http://forum.hunting.net/asppg/tm.asp?m=855430

[v8r]

Hey broken arrow who's trying to pick the fight now?If your handi was so terrible,then why didn't you send it back?I have  never expect anything when I buy a NEF or H&R rifle,but somehow I always am surprised.I didn't pay alot for mine,so I don't expect them to be benchrest guns.The only problem I ever had with a handi was my .357.It was puncturing primers,but I sent it back in.I also asked them to do a trigger job on it for me.They did all the things I asked them to do,and in a timely manner.They even sent my rifle back to me in a new box with a owners manual and everything.Their customer service is great,you should have given them a try.They would have made your rifle right.All of mine have shot great,most of them around a inch at 100 yards.If you like bolt action rifles great,My favorite is a Mauser 98 action,that some people think are junk. don't make comments that you might regret,because it's going to be real funny when the person you sold the barrel to gets it to shoot.I hope your foot isn't as big as mine,because your going to have a hard time getting it in your mouth.  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D Just kidding around

[JPH45]

Interesting broken arrow, you've hung around all evening "shooting back" You've even deleted a post in which you said you really stirred the Handi -holics up or to quite similar effect, least ways I don't see it now. If puttin' in your two cents worth about your experience with the NEF's was your purpose for being here, why has it been important to hang around and "defend your honor" here in cyberspace?

I imagine if I were to go to the TC or Dan Wesson forums or over to  a website for Savage owners and ask the same question as started this thread, I would get answers quite similar to those that have been given by the regulars here. It is kinda like answering "Yes" when your mother asks if you've been keeping your nose clean. And would we expect that same group to defend themselves and their brand if a naysayer popped into the conversation? If I spoke of bad experiences I've had with  Savage rifles, what would you think?

Fact is ignorance is a state of learning, to say that someone is ignorant is not the same as saying they are stupid. To be ignorant of something is to simply not know. To be stupid about something is either not know and not care to know, or to be unteachable. So if the word ignorant has been used, it may not have been used as a slander at all. If it was meant as a slander, then it is an ignorant use of the word ignorant.

To be honest, some days I find these guys kinda clickish, and I am convinced we have way too much time on our hands. Circling up here is kinda like sittin' at the "Liars Club" table at the local Waffle House, 'ceptin' of course this is Graybeards NEF Lovers and Liars table. I've been chattin' with this bunch for near two years now, and I must say that of all the sites I go to, I like this one best. I disagree plenty of times, just don't feel compelled to have to say so every time, I also agree plenty of times, and see no point in repeating what has already been said. So I don't post here as much as others but that's beside the point, Whoever started the thread is going to heed the advise, or not, it is up to them, my name in a thread don't mean diddly. Least thats how I see it.

So if you want to join in with us fine, if not, thats fine too, you don't have to agree or disagree with anything, your fondness for NEF's can even fall more to the hate side of love hate relationships, but if you're going to take bad language and particularly bad use of bad language personally, life's just gonna generally be tough all over.

So lighten up, if you don't like NEF's that's ok, no need to be offensive or take offense. And if these guys are turning a blind  eye to the faults of their brand of rifle, that's ok too, Hell, the fact that the starter on my GMC needs replaced every year don't make it a bad truck, it's just you can't get a good starter any more.

[v8r]

well spoken jph45.The only thing that is perfect is something the man up stairs made.We are all human ,and never will be perfect. :grin:

[cricman]

I would imagine that the other manufacturers all deal with the occasional firearm that just seems like a real klinker.  When you spend a large sum of money on one of the upper echelon rifles, your buying the experience of a large manufacturer who either tests lots of rifles, or even tests every rifle for function and accuracy.  It turns a $500 bolt gun into a $1500 bolt gun.  I suppose if you absolutely have to buy a rifle that is already test-fired and ready to shoot out of the box, then pay the factory to be relatively sure its accurate and functions.  

As for me, I'm sure my Handi-Rifles will fire, and I'm fairly sure they're accurate enough to hunt with.  And if I have to spend a few minutes (and that's no exaggeration) to add an O-ring, and bed the scope mount, and maybe an hour to polish the trigger, that's okay with me.  I like the hands-on aspect.  It's all part of the outdoor experience, just like touching up decoys, planting food plots, making blinds, and all of the other labors of love that go along with hunting.

Shoot straight,

cricman

Long Live the Handi-Rifle!

[Mac11700]

Another reason is ignorance...I'm sure you've seen some of the bad-mouthing that's gone on about the Handi.at other places...but here we know these fine little rifles for what their worth...and how great they can shoot...

(The above part of my  statement seems to be the crux of your problem...)

I wouldn't worry to much about what the Na-Sayers tell you about the Handi's...they don't fully appreciate our community here or our rifles...but we know different...

And this is what you said in return.......

I've had a .223 bull bbl and a .308. After a lot of tweaking and just the right handloads the .223 shoots OK. The .308 was a POC.  Call me ignorant but I did the math on that one and I came up with a 50/50 chance of getting a decent shooter

Broken Arrow...this is what happens when you take things out of contex....Exactly where did I call YOU ignorant??? And if you insinuating I am...then you are sadly mistaken...

 This statement of mine alone should have told you what exactly I meant..

The ignorance is coming from a few disgruntled people on the other sites I'm talking about...the ones I'm speaking of are those who really don't give any explanation of "Why" they can't get their rifles to shoot... who would rather generalize them all into one group...P.O.S...or as others have called them P.O.C...or boat-anchors pry-bars and a few other well chosen names...as too the other dealers...who tell customers to stay away from them...this is ignorance on their part...mainly because they could have repeat business with the Handi's...and because as most of us here on this forum know them as good dependable firearms...otherwise... if they weren't...I sincerely doubt this forum would be heret...

The bolds are mine...apparently...you either refuse to accept this...or your still unable to understand my meaning...I thought it perfectly clear...and no..I believe how you stated your math to come up with a 50/50 shot at having a good one is totally wrong...the odds are much more favorable...just look how many have had better luck than you ... as compared to those who have had bad luck with them that have posted on this thread......


Like I said before...PLEASE...stop taking things out of contex...it only muddies up the water when you do...

Mac

[quickdtoo]

I think too many people think the term ignorance means stupid as JPH45 pointed out. For clarity, ignorance means  The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed, and I do believe that fits the context as used previously.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ignorance

Or being ignorant means:
1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant  mistake.
3. Unaware or uninformed.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ignorant

[De41mag]

Well, here's my two cents;

I've got a Ultra Varmit in 223, with an extra 44 mag barrel. These guys will  tell you that I was about to give up on both barrels. But through blood, sweat and tears, I was able to get both barrels to shoot just the way I wanted them. The 223 barrel took over 400rnds to shoot the way I wanted it to and the 44 barrel has over 1600 rounds through it. The 44 will shoot cast gas checks and 300gr. jacketed bullets with uncanny accuracy at 100yds. Yes they do need some tweaking and trying t find the right load takes some time. But when its all said and done, I'll take my H&R/NEF over my Rem. Mod. 7FS and my Ruger Compact any day.
And soon I'll send my SB2 reciver in for a 7.62X39 barrel and get rid of my Ruger Mod. 77 MKII in 7.62X39. Just got the Ruger back from the factory because of primers backing out.
And as far as reloading, I'm burnt out on it. Been reloading twenty years  this Christmas. When I go to the range, all I want to do is shoot for groups, working up loads is something I'd rather not do. So the 7.62X39 barrel sounds very appealing. So shooting as cheap as I can, without reloading sounds good to me.
But  these rifles and shotguns are what I've settled into, I don't hardly look at new bolt guns anymore.
Heck, I was looking at Wally World at the Sam Walton limited edition Rem. Mod. 1100 20ga. for $687.00 to take out west bird hunting in OK next year, then decided to use my NWTF H&R 12ga. for pheasants.
Back when I was in my 20's I lived with my grandparents, used to go back behind the barn with an old 410ga. and shoot quail with an old single shot H&R, which I still have, and would shoot 1 bird a day and take them to my grandmother, and she would keep them till I had enough for a quail supper. One shot and one kill, it made me a better hunter.
As for me I'll take a single shot anyday.

Dennis  

[Broken-arrow]

 hey guys I haven't taken any of this personally. If any of you knew me it might be different. I'm just stating what I Know from experience, mine and others. And Yes I'm sure Jeff8mms bbl will shoot different on his reciever, because from what he said it locks up different than it did on mine. I put a LOT (months ) of time into that thing and whether you guys believe me or not I don't really care. I had all intentions of trying FredMs little tricks on too, But it belongs to my son and decided that even if I could eventually make it shoot, he'd never trust it because of the hundreds of times it did'nt.  I know, I know, I could've sent it back to NEF, I guess thats a common thing, Huh ?  Seems like everyone here has sent back at least one. DUH! Wake up!  Just like I said , It's like rolling the dice when you buy one.  Heck I know one guy with a 25-06 Ultra, beautiful gun by the way, that groups about 3" to 4" from the bench. And he hunts with the stupid thing!  God only knows how many animals he's missed and wounded. I'm not the only one thats unhappy with NEF, I have the right to speak my mind, thats why this country is so great.  BTW I didn't delete anything, I guess some-one else took it personal.  But just forget all of my previous posts and we'll get back to the original question, Why do they knock handis.  3 words  POOR QUALITY CONTROL

[lik2hunt]

:roll:  :music: :cb3:  :roll:

 :bye:

[Jeffery8mm]

Everything is relative in this world.  My deer is a trophy to me, but a small six point to you.  My wife is the best cook, yours may be a caterer for the president. My handi shoots well, yours patterns like a 12 ga.

See what I mean.  Some of us are tinkerers at heart.  Why else would I make my living working on chainsaws and trimmers.
The Handi represents a place in the gun safes of America for the man on a budget that would rather give and do for his family that have a safe full of "look at me's".  Nothing man made is ever garaanteed to be perfect every time. I have unboxed brand new Stihl [the best of the best] chain saws that had oiler probs or something else.  Stihl either fixes it or pays me to fix it!

I bought the .308 barrel from Broken Arrow KNOWING the problems he had with it.  Does that make me ignorant, or willing to accept a challenge??

Please pause for a moment to ponder on the reason you bought your first Handi.  Now realize that others had the same reason for buying thiers.
Folks can get down right protective about their guns, and handiholics seem to be a very close clan of folks, thank goodness for that.  
This board has been the best place to be for me with the NEF rifles and shotguns.  I have made a few pals here also!!

Remember that this is the Christmas Season!!  Peace on earth and goodwill towards men!!

Jeff

[Haywire Haywood]

Heck I know one guy with a 25-06 Ultra, beautiful gun by the way, that groups about 3" to 4" from the bench. And he hunts with the stupid thing!  God only knows how many animals he's missed and wounded.

Put a 25-06 bullet within 4" of the heart on a deer and you have punched a hole in (A) lung - dead deer  (B) liver - dead deer  (C) shoulder - dead deer, a little less freezer meat.

wassa problem?  like I said before, half inch groups are nice for braggin rights but not at all necessary for eatin' rights.   :wink:

Ian

[Broken-arrow]

Merry CHRISTmas Jeff,  I'm sending you a base and rings for the .308 bbl. They cost about what the shot-gun bbl would cost from NEF. In other words I'm giving you the bbl for nothing. That way I won't feel bad if it causes you as many headaches as it did me. It locked up easily on my rec. so I'm sure it will shoot different on yours. I hope it's a real tack-driver. This is supposed to be a Q & A forum, right. Well if a guy asks a question he deserves to hear the whole story, not just what the moderaters want him to hear. I guess Long-cruise and myself are just plain unlucky.  :cry:



 I am better than no man, but as good as any.   Will Rogers

[Broken-arrow]

HH, notice I said 3" to 4" FROM THE BENCH. In a hunting situation you could probably double that, right? The gun is a 25-06 and the guy thinks it's a 300+ yd gun. Calculate those groups!  :eek:

[Jeffery8mm]

One cannot deny that Broken Arrow is a good guy at heart!!!!!!!!!!
He has been nothing but honest with me throughout this deal with the .308 and you gota respect that.  He coulda said it shot great from his rifle and got more $$$ for it, but he chose to say what he thought of it instead of sugarcoating the deal.  Gotta respect that!!
Jeff

[Mac11700]

Jeff...

No-one is doubting Broken Arrow isn't a deceant guy...I think it's more of his choice of words that is stirring the pot,more than anything else...and while he may have had absolutly no luck with the 308 barrel...it still isn't a valid reason to try to condem all of them as worthless to the rest of this community...yes...he is indeed intitaled to his opinion...no-one is saying otherwise...moderator or not...as you can see from all the post on this...think of all the brand new tools,cars,radios,tv's,or what ever you choose...if you get 1 bad one personally  do you condem them all I think not...there are many here who know you can't expect benchrest accuracy out of these guns,and to get one to shoot to that level takes some doing...but these same guys also know that you can indeed get one that will preform as well as some of the most expensive bolt guns around from time to time...some of us have some good shooters...others have made their into one...others have had to send them back in...and others have had to send them back in several times...such is the way with them...and I agree with  Broken Arrow up to a point on the Quality Control issue...it could be better...no doubt about it...but  NEF as far as I am aware has always made good on the problems...even if it has taken a little time to get it straighten out...and they are getting better about the QC issue...there are several folks that have gotten the some really good guns of late...and if the were going to impliment different policies on the production of these rifles...they would surely have to increase prices accordingly...and that would cause a who diffent set of problems...


Sooo....I wish you all a Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year...


Mac

[Broken-arrow]

MAC,
   I was'nt trying to "stir the pot" . I'm just an honest man and I gave my honest opinion and you guys jumped all over me. And mine is not based on any one particular thing. I respect your opinion and I expect the same from you. I don't know you personally and you certainly don't know me.
 Sorry if I'm not too good with words, but some of yours were pretty harsh.  :wink:  
   
       Happy Holidays to all  :toast:

[gwhilikerz]

Broken-arrow I like NEFs, you don't. I respect that. Heck i like Rossi, and old sks rifles. I like my old mausers and my newer browning and Remington. Sometimes I think some of us are a little too quick to defend our particular brands, kind of like defending our choice and proving it was a good one.  So whatever you think about NEF is ok with me. I have my sights set on two new NEFs this coming year. (also a Rossi :grin: ).  I am not addicted to nef only. It seems to be a disease involving all single shot guns for me.  I own several nice hunting rifles and shotguns and they sit in the safe while me and my "Pardner" go hunting.

[Ditchdigger]

I think the H and R's are a inexpenseve gun that with the right load it will shoot good,not excellant but fairly good. If FredM had sent his to a gunsmith for all the mod's. he done to his,he would have a small fortune in it. My 223 is down to .5" but I probabley spent $300 on powders, bullets and primers getting it there. I've never had that much problems with a bolt gun,getting it to shoot less than 1".Do I like my Handi's, sure do but I've come to not expect so much from them like a bolt gun. It just go'es to show you that a lot of us are truly dumb for spending so much time and money just so we can brag about how good they shoot. This is one hardheaded bunch that don't give up easily on there guns on this forum. ( me included)  Digger

[Mac11700]

MAC,
   I was'nt trying to "stir the pot" . I'm just an honest man and I gave my honest opinion and you guys jumped all over me. And mine is not based on any one particular thing. I respect your opinion and I expect the same from you. I don't know you personally and you certainly don't know me.  
 Sorry if I'm not too good with words, but some of yours were pretty harsh.  :wink:    
     
       Happy Holidays to all  :toast:

 
Broken Arrow...I'm sorry if you think I was singling you out...or jumping all over you,or my words seemed a-little harsh......and while I do respect you...you simply have to stop taking everything that is posted in  general so personally,and replying back as such.....of course people here will stand up for something they believe in...and some do get riled more easily than others...I don't go for Handi Bashing...in any way...but you are intitled to your opinion as anyone else ...if you "stir the pot" unintentionally...that is one thing...but to intentionally start running things down here is another quite entirely,and anyone can post their opinions on things,provided they are willing to stand up and explain their reasons...be they positive or negative,but if they are out of the norm and they still decide to post it anyway...then they must be willing to take any heat from it...and in return do so in a constructive manner...otherwise those who choose to post only negative things,,,just to cause an argument or flaming war...will be dealt with by the management here,no exceptions.......... Most everyone here will go out of their way to help someone else out...that's one of the reasons we are all here and what makes GBO's one of the fastest growing best sites on the net.........BUT...to help someone.... in a worthwhile manner...more is needed than just saying a rifle is a piece of junk and I couldn't get it to shoot...most here would like to have the paticulars on "WHY" the rifle won't shoot...and details of the different factory and handloads,(cases,bulletspowder,primers...ect),rifle conditions,pressure related bedding issues, and so-on...to look over and give their valued opinions back to you...there is a wealth of knowledge on this board...all kinds of Engineers,data technicians,gunsmiths,and a extraodninary amount of hands on experianced folks who just might have the answer you are needing to make your rifle a great shooting investment from all the years of tinkering with them...and also...you have to understand we are doing this without ever seeing you,your rifle,your handloading techniques,range conditons,and bench shooting techniques...so a-lot of questions need to be asked to give the widest audiance enough information to best answer your questions...or ...give advise....and some of it you've probably done countless times ,but...it still doesn't hurt to go back over from time to time...we are never too smart to learn something new each day...
 
 
One last thing...if for some reason in the future you think that I am being too harsh on you...and you tell me...I'll go back over what I've posted...and if I see that I am...or if  others tell me I was..as well...I'll be the first to extend my cyber hand and apologize...I'm man enough to do that...but if you've taken what I've said out of context and I tell you  have...and show you where you have...then you need to accept this and move on with the conversation...so...if you still feel that I as a moderator here have offended you...then for the sake of stopping the bad feelings ... accept my apology on this...and let us move on to bigger and better things...and more in depth conversations...
 
 
Mac

[quickdtoo]

Ok, everyone....group hug...er..oh...sorry!  :oops:  :wink:

[Jeffery8mm]

Im with you quick!!  Coffee for everyone, Im buying. [ Had to leave those tinkling ice cubes behind a few years ago]

I wonder if the original poster got the answer they were looking for? :roll:

All kiding aside, This is a wonderful place and the company couldnt be better.  You guys are great

Jeff

[Broken-arrow]

I'll buy the second round.  I'll apologize again if I offended any-one. Evidently negative feed-back of any kind is not welcome here. So you won't here any more from me. But, I believe what I believe. Would you think more of me if just layed down and accepted defeat? Sorry, thats not my style.  :wink: But lets just get along here, OK?

[Donaldo]

Broken Arrow,
From one Okie to another.  You got a bum rifle, anyone can do that, in any brand, and you griped about it.  That is your right to do so.  I am not going to ride a dead horse here.  Enough has been said on the subject.  But I don't see anything wrong with griping about a bad product.  Yeah, I agree, NEF has some quality control problems, but most manufacturers do.  When you pay only $190 to $230 for a center fire rifle you can't really expect it to be a tack driver.  However...... that is what inspires me.....I am a contrarian.....I just love to go against the grain.  And yes it has caused me a problem or two in the past.....but I just love taking a "POC"  :-)  and trying to make a tack driver out of it.  That is the challenge of it.  Soon as I find a good load, I will change something, cases, bullets, primers, or something so I will have to start over.  It is the trip that matters not the destination.  So....Merry Christmas to every one, may all your wishes be fulfilled.  And pray for those less fortunate,  especially out troops overseas.  

[Mac11700]

I'll buy the second round.  I'll apologize again if I offended any-one. Evidently negative feed-back of any kind is not welcome here. So you won't here any more from me. But, I believe what I believe. Would you think more of me if just layed down and accepted defeat? Sorry, thats not my style.  :wink: But lets just get along here, OK?

Bro...you can believe anything you want to...and you can either accept what is written or not...this is of your choosing...not anyone else...Negative feedback...only reinforces the negative...it doesn't  offer any possible solutions to the problem...nor does it allow for any change to take place...if a person is not willing to accept a more positive approach to a problem and look for the good...instead of the negative...then they are shutting themselves off from finding the answer...


Constructive critisism on the other hand...is just that...it isn't to tear down and destroy...but to improve and make better by offering positive suggestions....and  that is a much better approach for finding a possible solution..........


Mac

[Graybeard]

It is WAY past time to let this one die.

[Mac11700]

Sorry Bill...I didn't read the other post...I'll lock her down...

Mac