30-30..... Feeling the need for speed

[Chainsaw]

I am very lucky to have two 30-30 Handi's that shoot very well with Barnes X Bullets of 130 to 140 grains. I have been able to obtain 2600 fps with one of the a pre-bankruptcy offering mated to an NEF shotgun frame.
The other is a 1996 NEF (from the serial number chart) that will not accept * barrels from the accessory barrel offer. I would like a .308 but do not want a rimless caliber as I had trouble with two previously owned rimless 30 caliber NEF offerings.

So I am contemplating going to a 30-30 improved of some type.  This will cost me around $140 dollars with the dies from Gary Reeder of Flagstaff Az. He chambers a round he has named the 30GNR which is a blown out case that has one/tenth of inch of case neck. He chambers this with good results in Contender pistols. The other route I could go is to find a .308 barrel and convert to .307 like Deadeye did. According to him, he hasn't worked much with his, so I don't know how that would work out either.
I would like to stay with the 130 bullets and get somewhat better performance than what I'm now getting with the standard case. I realize I WON'T get .308 performance but 150-200 fps would be welcome. Any suggestions you might have would be welcome. Remember that I'm on a budget and don't want a rimless chambered rifle. :grin:

[Smokin Joe]

How about the .30-40 Krag or improved Krag?

[Chainsaw]

Joe, I think the 30-40 has a bigger rim diameter and would require more machining to get an ejector made as well as to work correctly . Thanks for the idea, but that would be more than I would want to undertake.....Chainsaw

[Major]

How about the .30-40 Krag or improved Krag?

That was my first thought too!

[JPH45]

Actually, the cut for the extractor going up to the 30-40 could be made as the chamber is being cut with little trouble. It really sounds as though you are looking for a 30-30 Ackley Improved. The velocity gain fits right in where you are wanting to go.

On another note, I have done enough shooting with my 30-30 and knocked out enough stuck cases, that I don't think a rimmed case is the whole answer to the stuck case problem. I found that once I boosted pressure enough to make a case stick, that even full length resizing wouldn't solve the problem 100% for that case. From that point, it would stick if I only neck sized it. Quite a while back, another poster rechambered his 308 to a 308x444 in an effort to prevent stuck cases, it didn't work for him. It seems to be very pressure related. Cases that are operating at 40,000 psi and less seem to never have stuck cases, while those operating at 50,000 psi + have most all the trouble.

The suggestion to go to the 30-40 is actually quite sound. It will give the velocities you seek without exceeding 40,000 psi. It may well be worth another look. I would also be surprised that a 308 or 30-06 operating at lower presssures would give trouble with stuck cases.

[riddleofsteel]

On another note, I have done enough shooting with my 30-30 and knocked out enough stuck cases, that I don't think a rimmed case is the whole answer to the stuck case problem. I found that once I boosted pressure enough to make a case stick, that even full length resizing wouldn't solve the problem 100% for that case. From that point, it would stick if I only neck sized it. Quite a while back, another poster rechambered his 308 to a 308x444 in an effort to prevent stuck cases, it didn't work for him. It seems to be very pressure related. Cases that are operating at 40,000 psi and less seem to never have stuck cases, while those operating at 50,000 psi + have most all the trouble.

So were you exceeding 40,000 PSI in a 30-30 case?

[JPH45]

I doubt it, those loads would equal max loadings of H335, I was pushing 150 grain SST's and 147 grain FMJ's (milsurp ball) at 2360 fps. Remington 150 SP (good 'ol green box) locks 2389-2408 from my barrel. This is some of the most consistant factory ammo I've ever seen

I first started getting stuck cases with that batch after annealing the neck to get the neck softened up so it would size right to Lees mandrel in their Collet Die set. I have since filed the mandrell undersize (in a lathe) to eliminate the problems of neck hardness. This is a disscussion and solution found in Lees literatrue that comes with the dies...they offer an undersize mandrel for $5.00 I don't understand why they don't simply sell the undersize mandrel in the die to begin with, if it is so much a problem that they address it in their literature. So it could be that the problem we are experiencing with sticky cases has more to do with the hardness or more properly softness of the brass than with sticky chambers or poor extractors.

Thanks for askin', made me think about when I began to see this trouble at all. I've fired the group of cases I'm on at present 4 times, sized them with the collet neck sizer using the undersize mandrel with no troubles. Prior to altering the mandrel, three times in the collet sizer would leave the brass hard enough that it was nessicary to full length resize to get the neck to grip a bullet again. In other words I could only go through the collet sizer twice, on the third time some of the cases wouldn't hold a bullet.

[Chainsaw]

JPH45, You indicated that you believe the stuck case is a pressure related problem and I don't doubt that as I experienced that with both my since departed 308 and 30-06 Handi's.

I have never had that happen with my 30-30's. I have taken the NEF  to 2700 fps with the 130 Barnes but the case showed pressure signs and I backed off, but ejection of the case remained consistent thru that process.

I do though weigh each case( Win and Rem) and try to stay in the 128 thru 131 grain weight reference. All my Federal cases weigh around 143-144 grains and I use those and the heavier Rems and Wins for loading in the 30-30 lever action. Some of the stuck case problem could have been indeed a case problem, as wouldn't it figure that if the a case weighs more than the other, the same powder charge in both cases would produce higher pressure in the heavier case because the outside dimension should remain constant. I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 30-30 cases all once fired range brass. I FL resize all the cases and trim to spec and have no problems to date.

This gets me to thinking that if I try to "fix what ain't broken" I might end up worse off than where I started. I might have to rethink this as I'm getting good velocity from both rifles now and accuracy to boot with NO stuck cases. Doesn't it seems that all we want is just a little more than we'll ever have...............Chainsaw

[riddleofsteel]

You know most cases like the 45-70 and the 30-30 were designed to operate at lower pressures and using either black or duplex powders that burned dirty. Add to that the cast bullets and bullet lubes from the turn of the century and you have cases designed to able to be extracted from DIRTY chambers. During the Indian wars the 45-70 trap door Springfields were prone to poor extraction and stuck cases due to weak extractors. It may be that some of these older designed cases may not show up the problems modern rimless cases do quite as easily.
There is probably 1/2 dozen different reasons a case may show difficult extraction. In a bolt action you would never know the difference. What we often refer to as a sticky bolt lift would be stuck fast in a top break rifle.
Certainly a smooth, clean chamber, low pressure, and tapered case design seems to be major pluses in making this 1871 design extract consistently.

[Fred M]

From what I have read here. Factory ammo never gets stuck with a clean and polished chamber. Would it not make good sense to full size all ammo used in Handi's and set up your dies to produce 0.002- 0.003' head space.

I realise some dies squeeze in the body at the shoulder too much, but the die can be easily polished so it produces 1.5 thou radial clearance. This is the way I set up the 25-06 and no stuck cases. Neck sizing is not meant for the Handi from what I can tell. This system will give 8 reloads per case and an AI shape will do no better in a Handi. But I could be wrong.

It will be interesting to see how the custom 257Roberts chamber will work.
The 223 barrel is now at the barrel maker to become a 257 Roberts.
By the way, I  am going to load it to 250 Sav velocity. With the extra powder room I can use a very slow burn for reduced pressure.

I have found this to be very beneficial in the 25-06 Ultra when loaded to lesser velocity and lower pressure. Ken Howell did this with his 220 Howell
large case. Lots of slow powder with lower pressure, not ideal but well suited to the Handi.

[JPH45]

The Trapdoor has weak extraction? How can this be when the length of the entire breach block leverages against the rim and it will throw cases out with a hefty "SNAP". I can believe that cases exposed to weather and most especially stored in leather over time (as in belt pouches which was the pratice of the day) could corrode and the the rim simply be torn off, ( there are verified accounts of this) but I would never accuse the Trapdoors extractor of being weak. The extractor is on fact one of hte reasons the Trapdoor was chosen at a time when the world of firearms was going through major evolutions and there were several good but lower powered lever actions in the trials as well as a bolt rifle which became known as it evolved over time as the Lee-Enfield SMLE. Also note that 45-70 cases of the day were of completely different manufacturing techniques and materials. The cases were more copper than brass, with ballon heads as oposed to solid rims, the cases were drawn and the rim was formed by spinning and the primer was something more akin to a shotgun primer  rather than a simple cup primer in a pocket. A horrid affair by todays standards.

As well, the 30-30 was never offered as a black powder cartridge, one of it's claims to fame is that it was the first smokeless powder cartridge offered for civilian sale by a US manufactuerer, Winchester of course. The load was a 160 grain bullet over 30 grains of a smokeless powder, most likely cordite, which last saw broad usage for loading 303 British cases for Her Majesty's Army. Rumors of any other loadings are exactly that, rumors. There has never been produce any evidence that the 30-30 was ever loaded by any ammunition maker with anything but smokeless.

Chainsaw, yes it does seem that sometimes we don't always get what we want, I'm sure you know the rest....I would like to have something else intelligent to say on the matter, but since I seem to be speechless, perhaps it is best to remain so. God speed in your search for your ultimate 30-30, let us know how the search turns out.

John.

[jbtazgrabber]

YES I TOO HAVE HAD EXTRACTOR PROBLEMS...i have sold all my rimless barrels except my 762.25 which SO FAR has not given any problems ,but the case is so small it doesnt have much pressure......i had a 3040 krag and seen another i would rethink it if i wanted more speed.im not a speed deamon.....all the deer i hit couldnt tell me how fast the bullet that killed them was going,but it was faster than the 30.30 thats 4 sure.....the extractor is not a big deal,just take your time.....just my 2 cents worth.....JB.....