Author Topic: Turn Of Events: (Read 823 times)

Duce · « **on:** December 17, 2004, 03:13:47 PM »

People: While reading the post this evening, the one about shimming barrels, why people knock Handi's and a few others, lots of negativity!!
Got me to thinking about my problem child, a 22/250 Ultra, looked like it was out of headspace ( too large). One thing that had always bothered me was that when the barrel was locked up there was still enough of a gap between the barrel and receiver to see light. Upon close examination I notice that the hinge pin wasn't seated fully. It took awhile and some smart blows on a brass punch to drive it completely out. Then I turned it 180 degrees and put a new unworn surface under the barrel lug. I don't know if this will solve my problems, but there's no light between the barrel and receiver!! :-) <>< Duce:

JPH45 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 17, 2004, 03:29:39 PM »

Interesting Duce. Quite a while back, in fact HRTalk was still up, the local smith was showing me bent pins from NEF muzzleloaders that had been over charged. He said the first time he encountered this he did just what you describe, drove the pin out and reseated it with a clean bearing surface to the lug. I don't know the kind of machine process the pins go through, but I also wonder if it is possible for a pin to become jammed in the machinery somehow and get bent that way. It will be interesting to hear how the rifle shoots now.

handirifle · « **Reply #2 on:** December 17, 2004, 03:40:53 PM »

JPH
Since a mulleloader barrel is fully enclosed I don't see how there is any back thrust to bend a hinge pin. There is no pressure against the receiver, except to push the whole barrel BACK towards it.

A rifle cartridge itself thrusts against the receiver, at the same time pushing the barrel forward. This would cause the pin to bend. Maybe it was from someone using rifle charges too heavy and it was noticable with the ML barrel installed.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 17, 2004, 03:57:06 PM »

Now that sounds like a quick fix....how hard was it to drive out the Hinge pin Duce?

?

Mac

oktx · « **Reply #4 on:** December 17, 2004, 04:27:46 PM »

I swear my son's 243 did not have a gap between the bore and the breech face when we bought it, but one day I noticed it and I also noticed it shooting all over the place. I sent it back and they fixed it, now it shoots great. oktx.

JPH45 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 17, 2004, 05:48:27 PM »

I understand handirifle, I thought quite the same thing as I wrote that post, but I figured there must be something to what he says, he has a litle plastic bin with about 5 of the darn things in it. Makes you wonder a little doesn't it. I don't think the man is one to shall we say streach the truth, in a conversation one evening he described in detail how to chamber a barrel for a Mauser action. It was obvious he has done this before on more than one occasion. I can only take him at his word. However, for all I know those pins were in multi barreled frames and the owners are hotrodding the centerfire loads. But he did say the original reason they would bring the gun to him is that it wouldn't open after being fired. 'Tis a puzzle. Still likin that Big Bore? I sent off an inquirery about the availability of both the 308 HB and the 38-55, I'm hopin Santa's really good to me :grin:

Oops, didn't mean to hijack your thread Duce.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #6 on:** December 18, 2004, 02:06:08 AM »

JPH, since your gunsmith has the old hinge pins he must have replaced them with others, not just rotated them and reinstalled them. I would like to lay in a supply of 3 or 4 for future use. Next time you see him would you please ask where he got the new ones and let us know so myself and others here could buy some. Thanks....<><.... :grin:

Longcruise · « **Reply #7 on:** December 18, 2004, 05:56:25 AM »

Quote

Since a mulleloader barrel is fully enclosed I don't see how there is any back thrust to bend a hinge pin. There is no pressure against the receiver, except to push the whole barrel BACK towards it.

Handi, that's plain common sense and hard to disagree with. However, on my original H&R Huntsman the lock up seemed to fail as a result of the barrel having upward thrust at the rear and it had quite a bit of play in the lockup.

Another observation on a trad ml that I built. There evidently were some burrs in the relationship between the tang and the hook on the breech plug. The fit was as smooth and slick between the barrel and the tang as you could want.... until it was shot 15 or 20 times :eek: Shooting flatteneded the burrs and the barrel would rise at the rear more and more after each shot. This is a flat faced breech plug and tang face. Easy fix with a shim, but it surely showed a tendency to push the barrel upward at the rear

Duce · « **Reply #8 on:** December 18, 2004, 08:21:52 AM »

Gentlemen: I used a brownell's punch that has interchangale tips plastic to brass. With the rceiver solidly suported on a hardwood block with a hole for the pin to fall into, I used the punch and an 8 oz. machinist hammer. Every 6 licks or so you could just tell that it had just moved somewhat. I would suggest using a press if available. I used an old arbhor press to start seating the pin, then drove it home with a 12 oz. ballpeen. These pins are hardened, so there maybe a difference between rifle and shotguns. Luck :-) Duce:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** December 18, 2004, 08:27:11 AM »

Thanks Duce. :wink: ...FWIW, I looked for the frame pivot pin at Brownell's and Numrich. Never found anything at Brownell's and only found old model pins for H&R shotguns, none for an SB2 frame. Guess it's an H&R part only and I'd be surprised if they will sell one to us.

Fred M · « **Reply #10 on:** December 18, 2004, 01:04:10 PM »

The pin is very hard can't touch it with a file I guess it has a tensile yield strength of at least 120kpsi the pin is 3/8" in diameter or .111sq/in. 13220 lbs. Double Shear strength 75%. 9950 Lbs guess. You could easy make a pin from a HT drill rod and harden it. No big deal.

I think you need to worry more about the metal that the pin goes through the forward edge of the hole and the frame itself. Since it is not a complete box the stress is uneven. Or if you will stretching on the top of the frame. Since force of the of pressure is above the center of the hinge pin. Eh. nothing to worry about with standard loads.

The Handi's like moderate pressures. Just to keeep everybody honest they make the bores a little over size and the chambers a bit obese. The more you look at these things the more they make sense. :-D

Got to quit now. going to a CHRISTmas party bash.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 18, 2004, 01:42:29 PM »

Party Hardy Fred...but just don't drink & drive...

Mac

Donaldo · « **Reply #12 on:** December 18, 2004, 03:46:12 PM »

Got a thought that has been fermenting in my head for a day or 2. The Handi lug only has a half circle contact. Course that is so you can get the barrel off. The T/C's have a complete full hole in their lug. I am not familiar with the T/C's so do you have to take the pin out to change barrels, and if so how is it attached, is it threaded? You getting my drift here? What if we made up some lugs with a full circle hole in them for the pin to go thru? Surely NEF makes the receivers and drills the holes accurately enough for this to work. Seems the break down in tolerances is in welding the lug on the barrel, or at least in this area. Also, if we can eliminate the lug on the barrel that holds the forend on, we can solve the erratic accuracy of the handi. Like I said, I have some thoughts that are fermenting in my head about this and I don't know yet just where they are going. Fred, when you get back and sober up, :-) I wish you would give some thought to this. Some how we have to get rid of that lug that is out about 1/3 of the way on the barrel. Putting pressure on this lug is, in my most esteemed opinion,

, what makes these rifles string shots in a verticle pattern. Come on guys, help me here.

JPH45 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 18, 2004, 07:39:51 PM »

The TC pin is a simple slip fit, it is held in place by the aft wings on the forarm. Yes, it is fully enclosed by the frame and the lug, remove the forearm, push out the pin, change barrels, replace forearm, shoot at will. The full enclousre doesn't do more than look good and complicates barrel removal (try holding a stocked frame, a barrel and pushing out a pin, or aligning the three, new guns often need a light bit of persuasion to get the pin to move, I use the handle end of a screwdriver to tap the pin) a half circle does everything thats needs done. It has been a long time now, but I cannot say that I found the TC Contender any more intrinsicly accurate than the NEF. Had at one time 6 barrels, one a 357 Mag (early octagonal) barrel wouldn't shoot for a 20 dollar gold peice, a 30-30 barrel was a 2 shooter, 2 shots one hole, 3rd shot, any guess was as good. a 223 barrel would shoot .5 inches with at least half of what I fed it. A 44 mag barrel was really no better than my S&W 29, friend had a Ruger Red Hawk would outshoot either of them. To put all this into perspective, all but the 357 barrel would shoot 2" at 100 yards. I couldn't keep the 357 on the end of a 55 gallon drum with anything. Traded it for a 32 Mag barrel and never looked back. I loved the 22 LR barrel. Had to sell it in the early ninties, was out of work 2 years with a shoulder injury

Fred M · « **Reply #14 on:** December 19, 2004, 12:42:18 PM »

Donaldo

Quote

Some how we have to get rid of that lug that is out about 1/3 of the way on the barrel. Putting pressure on this lug is, in my most esteemed opinion, , what makes these rifles string shots in a verticle pattern.

For one thing I have never seen a break open rifle or shotgun that has no lugs or latches for the attachment of the forearm to the barrel. Even the most expensive single or double rifles have them. They are really of no concern.

I don't think that the barrel stud or lug causes stringing. I can only think of three things that cause stringing.

1.A loose forearm,
2. A variation in velocity of bullets, which is mostly very evident at long range.
3. A loose lock up which will change with various degrees of presuure in a loaded cartridge.

Any thing that is loose and/or can change position from shot to shot as the latch on a Handi, is suspect. In my opinion it is the biggest tetriment of accuracy in a Handi.

That is why I advocate to make the Handi rifle as solid a unit as you can.
This includes solid bedding of the hinge to the barrel and a solid, cushened, and tightly fastened forearm srcew to the barrel stud.
Free loat the rest if you like, I used a dense spray foam and forarm tip pressure on the forearm.

Install shims to the side of the underlug, and use epoxy steel to bed the sides of the action near the center of the barrel or chamber part.
All the above have solved the stringing and 95% of the accuracy trouble I had.

No. I did not need to sober up I only had one bottle of beer deluted 50/50 with Clamato Juice. Notwithstanding the free and ample supply of of beer wine and spirits.

Fred M · « **Reply #15 on:** December 21, 2004, 07:19:13 AM »

Shot stringing causes.

Quote

1.A loose forearm,
2. A variation in velocity of bullets, which is mostly very evident at long range.
3. A loose lock up which will change with various degrees of presuure in a loaded cartridge.

There are two more causes and Mac touched on them.

That is an excentric bore, meaning the barrel is thicker on one side of the bore than on the other. What that does is, when the barrel heats up it will expand more on on side than the other, moving the bullet away from the more expanding side.

This can also be caused by poor stress relieving of the barrel. This kind of stringing can be in any direction, rarelly straight up and down.