Author Topic: .308 125gr. BT for deer (Read 4650 times)

Broken-arrow · « **on:** December 10, 2004, 04:33:28 AM »

Anyone tried the 125gr. ballistic tips on deer from a .308? They shoot pretty flat and accurately for me but have'nt tried them on game yet. I know the 150s and 165s are awesome.

aulrich · « **Reply #1 on:** December 10, 2004, 05:26:23 AM »

That bullet is a varmint bullet out of a 308 there would be a distinct lack of penatration would be a problem stick to the 150-165's.

jhalcott · « **Reply #2 on:** December 10, 2004, 06:32:40 AM »

I've used these in a 12" canon breech PISTOL,308Lone Eagle.Also in a T/C 30/30 14".They are great varmint bullets,but iffy on larger game.They rarely exit on even small deer.They do LOTS of internal damage though. A rib or shoulder might prevent decent penetration.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** December 10, 2004, 07:23:17 AM »

Several years ago when I was still visiting other forum sites there was a fellow who championed the use of this bullet. He was firing it from his .30-06 and as I recall at well over 3000 fps, maybe as much as 3200 fps or so. Don't recall the precise velocity he said his chrono was giving him.

While I wasn't there and never witnessed any of his kills he said he had used it on something like 20+ deer as I recall and in all cases got quick one shot kills and pretty much always an exit. Now to me it is far better left to lower velocity and lighter duty but he sure seemed to think it worked well.

I was speaking with Kyle at Nosler the other day and I think I've also had the conversation with John R. Nosler a time or two before on Nosler BTs and the bad rap they seem to get on forums like this. The reason we all agree is they are being used for inappropriate uses. The Nosler BT is a great bullet. They are super accurate and do exactly what they are intended to do pretty much 100% of the time. BUT ya gotta know what they are designed to do and to use them with that in mind.

There are two completely different types of BTs. One is the varmint bullet and the other is the big game bullet. All the .224" bullets are varmint bullets. So are most of the 6MM BTs. But not the 90 and 95 BTs. Some of the .257" and 6.5mm bullets are varmint bullets. The lighter ones but the heavier ones are big game bullets. I think all over 7MM are big game bullets. Check with Nosler if you have a question on intended use.

If you use a varmint bullet on big game you most likely are going to be disappointed. If you use ANY of the light for caliber BTs in a super duper magnum and hit big game up close you're likely to be disappointed. Use the heavier for caliber BTs and even in the super duper magnums and even up close you'll likely get decent performance. Use them in standard non magnum cartridges and stick to the middle or heavy end of the bullet spectrum and you'll get great performance.

The BTs from .338" up are much heavier designed and intended for use on big game from the big rifles commonly associated with these bores. They will work fine. But don't go elephant hunting with a BT. Don't use a 7MM STW with 120 BTs to shoot elk at 50 yards. Be reasonable in your expectations and use and you will like the results. Use them improperly in a way they were never designed to be used and you are gonna be disappointed.

lazyi · « **Reply #4 on:** December 10, 2004, 09:18:52 AM »

Quote from: aulrich

That bullet is a varmint bullet out of a 308 there would be a distinct lack of penatration would be a problem stick to the 150-165's.

It's kinda funny this subject should come up since it's been very contraversial here in western Oregon with my huntin bud and I. Years back we started using 125 grn. bullets in our 3006 rifles for the "generally" smaller blacktail deer here. Throwing BC's out the window and giving them a try gave us our favorite load.Most anyone who would ask us what load we used to make the shot would argue for the longer more BC efficient bullets or just frown. But they work great so we just smile! :lol: Forget about ballistic tips and use Sierra Pro Hunters and I think you will be pleased!

Broken-arrow · « **Reply #5 on:** December 10, 2004, 10:04:08 AM »

Lazyi, I've shot the pro-hunters and game-kings, and yes they have been accurate and deadly in .270 and .308. But the BTs dropem a lot better in my experience. I've also shot partitions, and the game-kings have performed just as good and are more accurate at half the price. I was curious so I cut a 125 BT and a 165 BT and the jackets seemed to be the same thickness. One just had more lead. I think I'll try the 125s on a doe this weekend. (Maybe). I currently shoot 130gr.BTs in the .270 exclusively. At 3000fps they are simply awesome on white-tails. This is just like the debate over using HPBT Matchkings on deer. Some say they are a target bullet only and will not perform on game. I beg to differ! Some of us know better . I'm a bow-hunter at heart so believe me I have the utmost respect for the animal . Shot placement is the issue. :wink:

Duffy · « **Reply #6 on:** December 10, 2004, 10:09:03 PM »

Many use the 120 BT's in a 7-30 and the 708 with great success on deer. No reason it shouldn't work in the 308 as long as you do your part and also don't push them too hard. I just use a heavier bullet because my gun shoots them better, and like you said, placements the issue.

varmit_master · « **Reply #7 on:** December 11, 2004, 08:14:57 PM »

Hi i loaded some for a 30 06 and they shoot good they would nock a hole now i went to a 300 wby and that is what i use in it a 125gr BT shoot them in the shoulder looks like a Mack truck hit them they would work out of your 308 try them and see i know they will VM

Mac11700 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 12, 2004, 06:47:24 AM »

Quote from: Duffy

Many use the 120 BT's in a 7-30 and the 708 with great success on deer. No reason it shouldn't work in the 308 as long as you do your part and also don't push them too hard. I just use a heavier bullet because my gun shoots them better, and like you said, placements the issue.

The 7mm..120 grainer's have a much higher sectional density than the 125 grain 30 cals do...so they are much better at handling heavier game at the same velocities...

The 125 BT will work on deer...and they will do an admirable job provided you put your bullet in the proper place...but if you don't...you could wind up losing a-lot of meat...but from what I've seen and read on them...if your driving them at the max velocities they don't penatrate as well as say the 150's or 165's...and they are meant to be used for varmint's not deer...just as GBO has said...but since you have a better knowledge than the manufactures on what to use Their bullets for...

Quote

This is just like the debate over using HPBT Matchkings on deer. Some say they are a target bullet only and will not perform on game. I beg to differ! Some of us know better

Why even bother to ask?

Mac

Broken-arrow · « **Reply #9 on:** December 13, 2004, 03:01:04 AM »

I know what the manufacturers say about THEIR bullets. I was just asking for some actual real life experiences on game. In the field results.Where I live and hunt you dont want a deer to run far after being shot. The tamaracks and plum thickets are so so thick you can't crawl thru them, but a deer can run thru at full speed. Especially on a death run. My son shot a buck last year with a 130gr. partition, we searched for hours in the plum thickets , no deer. I found his bones a year later, 75 yds from where he was shot. He shot one this year with a 130gr. ballistic tip and by golly he was'nt hard to find. The manufacturers have to cover their *&%#. From the answers I got it seems the people who say they won't work have never tried them. The people who have tried them say they will . That's why I said I'll try them. Not because I know more than the good peopl at Nosler. Same way with the BTHPs. Properly placed , a 168gr. MK will drop a deer. And my .308 WILL place them properly.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #10 on:** December 13, 2004, 05:14:40 AM »

Some years back, I had a customer with severe arthritis ask for help. His doctor had told him not to shoot at all, but he was not quite ready to stop hunting. His rifle was an S&W in .30-06 which I fitted with the best recoil pad on the market at the time. I then worked up a load for him using Rem 125 grains at 2500 fps, reasoning that the 7.62x39 worked just fine at those levels. He was a woods hunter and a hundred yards was a long shot for him. I loaded him a hundred and he had killed five or six deer before I lost track of him.

That doesn't tell us much about how that bullet would do loaded to the max at close range, but it does tell us that it will do fine loaded down, or from a single shot pistol, or at extended range.

aulrich · « **Reply #11 on:** December 13, 2004, 05:21:19 AM »

The risk you are running with the .308 125's BT is that they will over expand and fail to make it to the vitals. My only experience with shooting big game with a varmint bullet is as a witness, a buddy got his cow elk last year with a 25-06 shooting 90 gr varmint bullets he was lucky, it took 3 hits the last one being the head (he'll be going with x-bullets next time). The first shot was place perfectly but the bullet did not make it far enough basically just sent bone fragments into the lung with the right bullet she would have been dead in 50 yards.

Thats may apples and oranges but in the 30 cal there is nothing the 125 balistictip can give you that the 150 ballistictip does not have, and the 150's will penetrate farther. The 150 ballistictip in 30 cal will do the same thing the 130 in 270 will do, drop them dead.

Here is a question would you use a 100 gr ballistictip for deer in your 270?

And yes I have use the ballistictips, 200 gr in in my 338, it kills like lightning.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 13, 2004, 06:58:50 AM »

Quote from: Broken-arrow

I know what the manufacturers say about THEIR bullets. I was just asking for some actual real life experiences on game. In the field results.Where I live and hunt you dont want a deer to run far after being shot. The tamaracks and plum thickets are so so thick you can't crawl thru them, but a deer can run thru at full speed. Especially on a death run. My son shot a buck last year with a 130gr. partition, we searched for hours in the plum thickets , no deer. I found his bones a year later, 75 yds from where he was shot. He shot one this year with a 130gr. ballistic tip and by golly he was'nt hard to find. The manufacturers have to cover their *&%#. From the answers I got it seems the people who say they won't work have never tried them. The people who have tried them say they will . That's why I said I'll try them. Not because I know more than the good peopl at Nosler. Same way with the BTHPs. Properly placed , a 168gr. MK will drop a deer. And my .308 WILL place them properly.

Quote

I'm a bow-hunter at heart so believe me I have the utmost respect for the animal . Shot placement is the issue.

Since your a bow hunter...then you also know a field point will kill a deer if properly placed...but that's not the point..... or is it

...you state that you have the utmost respect for the animals...but use match bullets to shoot them...does this mean you also use field points instead of broadheads while archery hunting....because to many...this conclusion could be drawn from your statement...

I'm not saying you do...and I sincerly hope you don't...but why not use the correct bullet in the first place...just because you can...doesn't mean you should....

Mac

Broken-arrow · « **Reply #13 on:** December 13, 2004, 07:06:33 AM »

Would some-one please define "varmint bullet " for me ? If you shoot 180 gr. BTs from your .338 is it a "varmint bullet" just because it's light for caliber? If the jacket is the same thickness does 25 grains make that much difference to a 150lb white-tail? The 130gr BTs have never failed for me, always complete pass-throughs and lots of damage. I asked for real world experiences and started a storm of hypothetical answers. As for the 100gr. BTs in the .270. No I would'nt because in my experience the .270 likes to be loaded hot for optimum accuracy and that bullet at those velocities probably would expand too quickly. ( Like the 90gr in the 25-06, on an elk ? ) :roll:

Prince of Wales · « **Reply #14 on:** December 13, 2004, 07:18:47 AM »

I really haven`t the knowlege to comment as to the 125 bt being a varmit round or not but i can say thet the Sierra 125 gr Pro Hunter is a big game round and will work on anything from Blacktail to Caribou in a 308 Winchester rifle. POW

Broken-arrow · « **Reply #15 on:** December 13, 2004, 07:31:21 AM »

Nosir,Mac, I shoot 125gr. Thunder-heads and I have for at least 15 years. But I did drop to 60Lb dr.wt. from 80 for the same reason I asked about the lighter bullet. I have an old neck-shoulder injury and can't handle a lot of recoil. I can hunt with my .243 or .223 and for that matter I have taken deer with both. But the wonderful .308 Winchester is my favorite and always will be. I'm simply trying to find a light recoil load that will put them quickly. I'm one of the most humane and ethical hunters you will ever meet. I'm not hunting Cape Buffalo, I'm hunting Whitetail deer , and as far as I know they're not wearing kevlar. :shock:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 13, 2004, 07:58:26 AM »

I've shot a few coyotes with the 125 BT loaded to get 2600 fps from them..of the 3.. I dropped at less than 50 feet and put the bullet in the heart/lung area 1 came completely apart and did not penatrate and 1 did but left a exit wound the size of a soft ball...like I said before...they will work and you can kill a deer with them...but I would only use them as a last resort on deer where the shots can be very close and if loaded to high velocities...and if I'm shooting normal 308 distances...I'll load a hevier bullet to retain a higher level of velocity...for better penatration...

The 270 cal 130 grain yellow tip BT has a SD of .242....the 30 cal 125 grain green tip BT has a SD of .188... move up to a 150 grain green tip BT and the SD goes up to .226...there is no comparision between the 2 lighter bullets...this make all the difference in the world as to how these 2 bullets react in the same animal...as to where they..start.. to expand...and that is the key...animals are unpredictable...and you know they won't always stand pefectly still for you to shoot them,,they can swap ends extreamly fast or drop a full body lenght in a 1/10 of a second...and that can turn a good shot into a marginal shot...and if that happens you've probably got a wounded deer ...not a dead deer...so...to get back to the issue...you have the utmost respect for the animals correct...so...why not use a better constructed bullet for the job... you don't have to load the 150's hot to have a great round in the 308...and you might have a more accurate load to boot...

Mac

Broken-arrow · « **Reply #17 on:** December 13, 2004, 12:54:22 PM »

So many opinions, One moderater says they work great, from a 300 Wby no less, another compares it to shooting a deer with a field point,and accuses ME of having no respect for the animal. :roll: GB himself said he thought all BTs over 7mm are big game bullets. And any-one who frequents this forum probably knows why I hunt with SMKs. And I thank him for his information.

BTW Mac, I don't think wer'e supposed to get personal here,and I think you crossed the line just a little. :wink:

aulrich · « **Reply #18 on:** December 13, 2004, 04:12:29 PM »

I do belive that GB was right and I was wrong, :oops: I went back to the book (nosler manual No5) 25 cal and under the varmint bullets are clearly marked as such. So as far as there book says the 125 bt should work for deer especially out of the 308 where the velocity is not too high, the sectional density makes me nervous, I'd still use the 150 or 165's.

Again sorry, I had assumed all 30 cals under 150 are varmint bullets, I guess I have learned a good lesson, read the D*&M documentation.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 13, 2004, 07:03:11 PM »

Quote from: Broken-arrow

So many opinions, One moderater says they work great, from a 300 Wby no less, another compares it to shooting a deer with a field point,and accuses ME of having no respect for the animal. :roll: GB himself said he thought all BTs over 7mm are big game bullets. And any-one who frequents this forum probably knows why I hunt with SMKs. And I thank him for his information. BTW Mac, I don't think wer'e supposed to get personal here,and I think you crossed the line just a little. :wink:

I didn't cross the line at all,you are the one to state your usage of Match bullets for shooting deer my friend...not I......go back and re-read what I said...here I'll save you the trouble

Quote

Since your a bow hunter...then you also know a field point will kill a deer if properly placed...but that's not the point..... or is it ...you state that you have the utmost respect for the animals...but use match bullets to shoot them...does this mean you also use field points instead of broadheads while archery hunting....because to many...this conclusion could be drawn from your statement... I'm not saying you do...and I sincerly hope you don't...but why not use the correct bullet in the first place...just because you can...doesn't mean you should....

Mac

You'll notice I did say they would work.

Quote

The 125 BT will work on deer...and they will do an admirable job provided you put your bullet in the proper place...but if you don't...you could wind up losing a-lot of meat...but from what I've seen and read on them...if your driving them at the max velocities they don't penatrate as well as say the 150's or 165's...and they are meant to be used for varmint's not deer

.. and...if you take a little bit more time to fully understand what I wrote...and my reference to the field point... is akin to using a SMK bullet...not the BT...2 totally different peas in a pod.

Nosler will be more than glad to give you their recomendations for the usage of the 125 BT...GBO has already told you of his conversations with them...I too have had a-lot of talks with those fine folks...and you can too...but the fact remains...drive the 125BT's as fast as a 308 can push them...and get a shoulder shot...I really don't think you'll be happy with the results...I can say with a good deal of certainty...the deer won't either...drop the velocities down a great deal...to say that of a 10"-14" contender level...and the results will be more optimum...

Some folks don't care if the bullet makes mince meat out of the sides of the deer...to them...dead is dead...I don't consider this to be the best sceanario to taking any big game animal...splattering P-dogs and the like...totally different...and I certainly won't use a bullet designed for varmints for deer...period...you can if you want to...but in reality...the difference between the 125's and the 150's is pretty great as far as penatration and that is what makes the difference to me...and to a-lot of other folks...I think I understand your reasons for wanting a lighter recoiling load...and you can achive the same results by lowering the velocities of the 150 BT somewhat...

So...I don't feel any part of this conversation has crossed over any line...so I feel ok at saying this to you again...just because you can...doesn't mean you should....

Mac

Selmer · « **Reply #20 on:** December 14, 2004, 07:11:53 AM »

Ok, since no one has really given a straight answer if they've used the 125 gr. BT out of the .308 Winchester or not (forgive me if I skipped over a post and missed it, I started skimming 3/4 of the way through the thread) I'll chime in YES, I HAVE USED THE 125 GR. NOSLER BT ON WHITETAILS AND MULE DEER OUT OF A .308 WINCHESTER. I'ved used it with two different loads, one for minimum recoil, and one for max velocity out of a different .308. The first was 47 gr. 4831 behind the 125 gr. BT, very light recoil, very good deer killer, excellent penetration, even through both shoulders, and no more meat damage than is to be expected with any bullet. The second load was with 51 gr. H380 behind the 125 gr. BT. Tackdriving accurate, I used this for a few seasons to see how well it did. Like most of you, I thought I would have mediocre penetration and massive meat damage. I shot 8 deer with it, all died with one shot, 75 to 350 yds. The 75 yd shot went completely through the chest cavity, hit only ribs and destroyed the lungs. Other shots were in the same region, some hit the shoulder bones and kept on going. This load was around 3000 fps and was a wonderful deer load. I have since purchased a .30-06 and shoot 165 gr. BT's out of it for deer. They have less meat damage than the 125 gr. BT's and kill just as fast. I have since moved to 150 gr. bullets in the .308 that liked the fast load (M788 Remington) They kill just as well as the 125 gr. BT's, but I feel a little better with the extra weight and better SD. I still shoot the 125 gr. out of the other .308 (Savage 110, wouldn't take the pressure of the faster load). This lighter load is an IDEAL deer load for anyone looking for less recoil and I highly recommend, recoil is in the same category as a .243 with 100 gr. max hunting loads in it, AKA, you can watch your bullet hit from a good rest. I highly recommend the 125 gr. BT for light loads out of the .308 for deer and antelope, it's worked great for me, and yes, I think the hunting-class Ballistic tip bullet are the best whitetail bullets made, hands down, with the exception of the 6mm 95 gr., please use a 100 gr. partition instead!
Selmer

Broken-arrow · « **Reply #21 on:** December 14, 2004, 10:47:55 AM »

Thank you Selmer, Finally got a straight answer :grin:

Selmer · « **Reply #22 on:** December 15, 2004, 07:07:09 AM »

You're very welcome, one of my pet peeves on any forum is asking a direct question, then getting a bunch of speculation from people that have never done what I'm asking about, or had a cousin's friend that had a brother-in-law who's best friend tried that and it didn't work. If you need any other load info for the .308, I've got some, but I hit the nail on the head with the 47 gr. 4831 and the 125 gr. BT, shoots great so I didn't try too much else in the light load department. I have some max loads for 125, 150, and 165 gr. BT's, all using H380, it meters nice and they shoot sub-MOA for me, so my experimenting is somewhat limited. Good luck, hope everything works our for you.
Selmer

lazyi · « **Reply #23 on:** December 18, 2004, 09:57:21 AM »

Hello all! I have to step in here and say" the Nosler 30 cal BT's are "NOT A VARMINT BULLET" Nosler developed them specific to hunting! Don't beleive me look here: http://www.nosler.com/noslerbullets.html
I had to throw this in since this seems to be quite the scuffle here! :?

Quote from: Mac11700

Quote from: Broken-arrow
I know what the manufacturers say about THEIR bullets. I was just asking for some actual real life experiences on game. In the field results.Where I live and hunt you dont want a deer to run far after being shot. The tamaracks and plum thickets are so so thick you can't crawl thru them, but a deer can run thru at full speed. Especially on a death run. My son shot a buck last year with a 130gr. partition, we searched for hours in the plum thickets , no deer. I found his bones a year later, 75 yds from where he was shot. He shot one this year with a 130gr. ballistic tip and by golly he was'nt hard to find. The manufacturers have to cover their *&%#. From the answers I got it seems the people who say they won't work have never tried them. The people who have tried them say they will . That's why I said I'll try them. Not because I know more than the good peopl at Nosler. Same way with the BTHPs. Properly placed , a 168gr. MK will drop a deer. And my .308 WILL place them properly.

Quote
I'm a bow-hunter at heart so believe me I have the utmost respect for the animal . Shot placement is the issue.

Since your a bow hunter...then you also know a field point will kill a deer if properly placed...but that's not the point..... or is it ...you state that you have the utmost respect for the animals...but use match bullets to shoot them...does this mean you also use field points instead of broadheads while archery hunting....because to many...this conclusion could be drawn from your statement... I'm not saying you do...and I sincerly hope you don't...but why not use the correct bullet in the first place...just because you can...doesn't mean you should....

Mac

Broken-arrow · « **Reply #24 on:** December 18, 2004, 10:16:56 AM »

Thanks Lazyi, Nosler makes a fine bullet. IMO there is none better than the ballistic tips for white-tails. One shot one kill, they've never let me down. All the "scuffle" was my fault, should've never mentioned the SMKs. But they too have proved devastating on deer-sized game, uhh , at least thats what I've heard. :wink:

Happy holidays to you and your's :toast:

patw · « **Reply #25 on:** December 24, 2004, 10:19:24 AM »

Haven't used the 125BT in 308, but I have been using them the last two or three years in a 30-06 and a 300H&H. The 150 gr bullets, and especially the 180s in the 300 were making too much of a mess on the little Texas hill country deer, so I decided to try milder loads with smaller bullets. I have not lost a deer using the 125s, and most have dropped where they were. I have also shop a few pigs, although none bigger than 100 lbs or so, and the results have been the same. Two weeks ago, a friend was shooting a 7 mag with 120 gr BT, shot three deer, and the shoulder shots went through and through. All were found dead within 50 yards. I don't remember where, but somebody here posted about a study that concluded that " This study indicates that rapidly expanding bullets lead to deer running less often and less distance and when they run they leave better sign." The results were a surprise to me too.

http://www.scilowcountry.org/cedar_knoll_deer_study.htm