Author Topic: Lion Charge............. (Read 5326 times)

Lawdog · « **on:** December 22, 2003, 03:52:06 PM »

Has anyone seen this? http://myweb.cableone.net/jlflanagan/lion.wmv
Can anyone give any information about the client or who the PH was? Is it me or does the client's rifle not have enough recoil for a rifle large enough for the taking of DANGEROUS GAME? Also with the power lines in the near background I don't believe they were to far out in the bush. A game ranch maybe? Would love to hear JJ's comments on this. What mistakes did the client or the PH make? Lawdog

Quadzillabill · « **Reply #1 on:** December 22, 2003, 04:09:46 PM »

The link is for the audio portion only. I'll mention, they do sound more than a little frightened.

:eek:

Fixed it, WOW!

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #2 on:** December 22, 2003, 05:06:54 PM »

Great clip lawdog!! Yes I was thinking the exact same thing about the recoil of that rifle.. It looked like the lion had been shot at least once before he charged :shock: I always thought that if you were hunting dangerous game you were required by the outfitter to use a caliber suitable for said game?
That man was very lucky....

kciH · « **Reply #3 on:** December 22, 2003, 05:13:01 PM »

That rifle didn't seem to have much recoil. You wouldn't catch me shooting at anything that can tear you apart or stomp you into the ground with less than .40 caliber and 400 grs.

I bet it'll make for a hell of a story though.

JJHACK · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2003, 05:21:50 PM »

The PH is South African and he is speaking to other South Africans because I can understand his paniced comments which are spoken in Afrikaans. The powerline poles are not really relevent as they run power like that for hundreds of miles throughout Southern Africa. Labour and wire are cheap to have power at remote permenant camps by todays standards. I have hunted in many remote places where the power poles have been knocked out by rhino rubbing on them to scratch their backs, sides and behinds.

It looks to me as if the lions last charge when the man is knocked down was with the functional use of only one good front leg. One is not functional or 100% functional as he cannot swipe the hunters head off as he goes by and only manages a slight shove or limited swat.

I cannot comment on much else as I don't know more about this then what I have seen here. Judging a guns recoil under this filmed situation is not easy for me. You will have to be the judge of that yourself. A 300 win mag is enough to crumple a Lion under hunting conditions. To stop the adrenillin rush is another story all together. It's clear the first shot should have been placed well enough to end this hunt. When it was not placed right the results can be seen. Consider how much ground that lion covered without out being hit, or if he was, without any effect. From what I see he covered at least 50 plus yards and was not stopped or from what I can see even hit with a single bullet.

It's all fun and games to hunt these animals and the romance of the "big bores" is nice. However if you cannot recover from the recoil of your gun all that power is worthless. I have always said the 375HH has low recoil and more then enough power to do the job. In this case that lion covered all that distance and only one shot from each man was taken. Recoil would seem to have been enough to limit the potential for a second shot from each. Maybe panic? maybe to much gun. Clearly a 30/06 bullet in the chest is better then a 458 lott in the dirt!

My PH Mentor, Peter Harris who has been the PH for more lions then anyone I know has always used the 375HH for his backup gun. He said over and over that multiple shots are more important then enormous power. When you miss with all that power your done because you cannot get a second shot off very fast. With a 375HH you can shoot plenty of rounds and each has enough power to do the deed. He also uses a 500 Jeffery but not when hunting lions!

Lawdog · « **Reply #5 on:** December 23, 2003, 11:48:55 AM »

JJ,

From the reaction of the lion at the first shot I would say that the first bullet went in to far back. The hunter(client) shot as the lion(it was a nice lion from what I know about African Lions) was turning. I agree that the lion looked like it charged from at least 50 plus yards(by the amount of time the charge took(average of 40 mph. over 3 second time span) I would say closer to 70 - 80 yards). My problem is from the recoil it looks like the hunter was shooting a darn small rifle. Is there many areas where a hunter can use smaller than .375 H&H for dangerous game? One thing the hunters wife, who did the photo work, is one cool gal to be able to keep filming during all this. She got in the best shot of all. :eek: Lawdog

JJHACK · « **Reply #6 on:** December 23, 2003, 01:37:47 PM »

WIth a Muzzle brake there is typically no, or greatly reduced muzzle rise. I have used a 458 with only a 2" muzzle lift. Louder then a jet engine but little recoil. I can't say. If you know more about this please share How did you find out about the guys wife being the one doing the video work?

TimWieneke · « **Reply #7 on:** December 23, 2003, 04:31:10 PM »

Holy crap... If this video does one thing, it tells you to respect dangerous game... I love how they end the video with an ad for their services - kind of to say "Be the next guy to nearly lose your head to a lion with us!".

One thing I noticed, it seems that it took the hunter a looong time to get a follow up shot after his first one on the charge - also it looked like he had a scope more attuned to studying the craters of mars than close range brush hunting. I can't speak as someone who's been to Africa (cuz I ain't) but I would seriously consider a 4x scope or iron sights and a rifle that I'm so familliar with I can chamber a follow-up round without even thinking of it. At least, that's a lesson I learned while boar hunting one day....

Tim

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** December 24, 2003, 05:25:18 AM »

How utterly utterly stupid to not have fired an immediate follow up shot or two from the original shooting postion when it was noticed the lion was still up and moving around. Very little difference in angle as it appeared from the camera's position. Why in the world did they walk up on that known wounded but mobile lion unless they were hoping for a charge for the video? Total stupidity in my opinion.

GB

Lawdog · « **Reply #9 on:** December 24, 2003, 08:27:54 AM »

JJ,

In my career as a LEO I have had to view many home movies. The camera angle is lower than the shooter which indicates the person doing the filming is shorter than the hunter(client). The sound quality of the of the wife sounds just like those you get from a person standing behind the camera. This is caused by the microphone on the camera is pointing toward the subject and the voice of the operator comes from behind giving it a funny tone. After you listen/view enough tapes you learn to tell the from which direction the voice is coming from. Also you never see her in the film you just see her.

As for a muzzle brake I though of that and had the film blown up and there is no brake on the end of the hunters rifle. I though the rule of thumb in Africa concerning dangerous game is shoot until they're down and if they try to get up, shoot again. I know in Alaska you shoot a Brown Bear until he is down and then many will put in an insurance shot. Makes your life insurance carrier happy. Lawdog

JJHACK · « **Reply #10 on:** December 24, 2003, 11:49:55 AM »

I suppose when 1000's of folks have the chance to reveiw the tape over and over dozens if not a hundred times with slow motion and the other Hi-tech methods of determining all the fine points of the event it becomes rather easy to second guess the way it was handled.

I only know what I have seen in the little 2" square video. However I also know from many experiences that in the moment of heated battle strange things happen and mistakes are easy to make. It's always easy for the "arm chair" PH to second guess all the things that they did wrong and all the things they should have done different or "right".

Please don't misunderstand my written text here as directed at you anyone personally. I have been in these situations with dangerous animals a few times and even I have said "wow that was bad I need to rethink the way I handle some of these events in the future" Having been knocked down and bitten and clawed by a bear myself I understand that a lot of people have stress issues with charging dangerous game.

Nobody can compare the ease of decision making while sitting in front of a computer with the actual event! As far as a DGR for the lion, well a huge male lion will not likely make the 500 pound mark, typical weights are in the 375-425 pound range. I know of two in my whole career that were close to 500 but I have never heard of a wild lion which was weighed being over 500 pounds. An American Grizzly will be 500 on the small side and 600-700 normal weight. Brown bears are bigger yet. Sometimes by double.

300 magnums and 338's are the typical firearm for these big bears. They are a good tool for the job when the bullets are place properly. I have seen several Brownies killed with a 30/06. Jack Oconner also said himself that a 30/06 with a 220 grain bullet was plenty for a big bear. The Guide with Fred Bear who backed him up on the first five bears that Fred arrowed used a 30/06 on all 5 of them as a stopping rifle! The 6th bear Fred actually killed without the rifle shot and then was able to enter that one in the book.

One well placed shot on any animal is all that is needed. Take your time and make it right. I guess If I have a criticizm of the event, (and it has nothing to do with the shooting) I would have waited for a better shot or baited that lion and killed it from a blind near by using a solid rest. But that's just my PH experience talking. Why there was such a hurry to make a rushed first shot is beyond me. Any scoped rifle should be able to place a bullet into an inch at the distance they shot from the first time. Any bullet from a modern centerfire rifle placed into the chest on a 400 pound lion or any other animal will kill it.

My question is why the rush? Why not bait that lion and kill it later that night or the next day. Lions will easily come to bait, and this one was not much afraid of the people! Even I can second guess things when I should not. THe hunter may have been boastful of his shooting skills(common) and the PH may have bought the story(common) then they see the truth where the rubber meets the road on a lion hunt. I am surprised at all the misses involved but under the same conditions who knows how we will perform?

kciH · « **Reply #11 on:** December 24, 2003, 03:47:55 PM »

It is difficult to assess how you'll respond in "crap your pants" moment, such as this one might be for some folks, the PH included I'd imagine.

myronman3 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 29, 2003, 04:39:23 PM »

from what i can see the woman that walks in front of the camera in the begining of the clip is seen running off when the lion jumps past the guy. if this is who you are refering to as the guys wife; she most definately wasnt filming it.

Lawdog · « **Reply #13 on:** December 30, 2003, 09:43:14 AM »

myronman3,

I am talking about the end of the clip where the camera person walks up to the hunter and says "Honey, are you ok?". The voice comes from behind the camera so either the wife is operating the camera, hiding behind the camera operator so close they are sharing sweat or the operator is bent in a different direction than I am. :roll: Lawdog

myronman3 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 31, 2003, 11:45:38 AM »

seems to me that the female standing next to the guy says that. i could be wrong though. your better than me if you can tell for sure.

Omega · « **Reply #15 on:** December 31, 2003, 05:29:47 PM »

Quote from: Lawdog

JJ,

The sound quality of the of the wife sounds just like those you get from a person standing behind the camera. This is caused by the microphone on the camera is pointing toward the subject and the voice of the operator comes from behind giving it a funny tone. After you listen/view enough tapes you learn to tell the from which direction the voice is coming from. Also you never see her in the film you just see her.
Lawdog

Gosh I figured the pretty black haired lady that walked in front of the camera in the sequence before the shot was the ladies voice you hear. She is also on the otherside of the lion during the charge and not behind the camera man. The woman walks up to the man and asks him if he is ok she is not the camera man, the easiest proof of that is the little scream she gives during the charge, no way you scream and keep the camera still. I'll say one thing the camera man was good, very good!

gdolby · « **Reply #16 on:** March 10, 2004, 06:03:04 PM »

Not very familiar w/ graybeard so forgive my ignorance . What happened to this video? I watched this one and the lions win video one night . came back to show to a friend and this one is gone .Would someone mind educating me. Thank you for your time and good hunting .enjoy your discussions on this forum very much never been but want to go. keep up the good work B

Graybeard · « **Reply #17 on:** March 13, 2004, 03:37:13 AM »

Has nothing to do with GBO. Apparently the folks who were hosting it took it down. Just a guess but like you I can't get it now either.

GB

Siskiyou · « **Reply #18 on:** March 13, 2004, 08:30:55 AM »

I read that the Lion Charge was getting so many hits the they pulled it down. Clearly a discussion item along with the ManEating Lions that got away with the camera.

When you find items like that you need to download them.

gdolby · « **Reply #19 on:** March 13, 2004, 04:36:30 PM »

thank you for your time. as to the suggestion of down loading it that is a very good one, but there is a hitch. You have to know how. thank you again and good shooting ..B

Lawdog · « **Reply #20 on:** March 14, 2004, 09:47:27 AM »

gdolby,

The next time you see a link that you would like to download just click the right mouse button and on the menu that appears click on the "Save Target As" option. Then follow the directions and make sure you remember where you save it(what file folder). Lawdog

Double D · « **Reply #21 on:** March 14, 2004, 01:22:01 PM »

This video is pretty heavily discussed over on a couple of the other boards. The folks promoting that hunt have taken some heavy duty heat over it at a coupel the winter shows.

The rows of power poles in the back ground aren't powerpoles they are heavy duty fence post in a game fence and that is a canned hunt.

I have a copy of it if anyone wants it.

gdolby · « **Reply #22 on:** March 14, 2004, 06:16:04 PM »

Thank you for the instructions. I have about 30 personal photos floating around in my computer somewhere, so I understand that" remember where you file it " part.Thank you again. Shoot straight. B

stxsigman · « **Reply #23 on:** April 01, 2004, 06:59:08 AM »

I have to agree with Double D my first impression was that the poles in the background are a managment fence and I also think the animal may be cornered.

Lawdog · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2004, 12:42:57 PM »

gdolby,

Look for a secondary file on your system called "my down loaded files" just like I typed it here. Many systems store down loaded files in this file. Just a though, might help you find your pictures. Lawdog

Larry VeR.458 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 23, 2004, 08:20:18 AM »

^^^ I personally make up my own folders so I know where to find stuff. Like "games" "hunting" ect. You can always select the place with which to download to, and if you don't have much time, just select desktop and drag and drop later. :-) You can make the folders in "my documents" or even just on the plain "C" drive. Just don't go too deep with the folders because they can mess up :-D (another words don't go, my docs/personal/hunting/guns/reloads/pet reloads/big bores/.458 cals/.458 Lott/plinking loads/300 gr with 64 grs/ect. :-D

)

I think i've seen this video elsewhere, the link was broken when I came in here but it sounds like the one I've seen. I too thought they had plenty of time and a clear enough shot to hit it again, it just sat there for a couple seconds.

JJ nice job on telling us about the quantity of shots some PHs recomended. From what I can gather from that 5 shots with a .375 have a much better job of hitting something good compared to 1 .577 T-REX

(which is about all you could get off with that gun)

once and future chef · « **Reply #26 on:** September 14, 2004, 11:48:01 AM »

I just saw the video last night. Wow. I agree with both JJ and Greybeard. The first shot was rushed, the second shot was waaaay too slow, and the right front leg does not seem to function properly (ie the hunter still has his head, and the lion tumbles over an apparently injured leg). Aside from the obvious, the thing that freaked me out the most is that the client and PH seemed to think that it was all pretty cool. "Was that close enough for you!" I heartily agree that when hunting DG shoot till its down, if it tries to get up, shoot again, and then maybe one more for your life insurance agent's sake. It was not nearly as dangerous as lions, but I had a large (400lb) feral hog wake up in the bed of my truck with one round of .30-06 in the head and one in the lungs. The one in the head apparently just stunned, the one in the lungs..who knows. He had time to tear the capper on my truck apart before my buddy earholed him with a .22. As the man once said "Its the dead ones that kill you."

sparks70 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 16, 2004, 03:37:42 PM »

once and future chef
Where did you get the video. I thought the link was gone?

DUGABOY1 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 24, 2004, 09:51:47 AM »

I couldn't get the film to work for me, but by your discriptions, I think I have seen this clip before! It was a canned lion hunt in RSA, and if you look very closely, you will see a HIGH FENCE in the background, and this took place in the corner of the enclosier! This was an exercize in group stupidity, not to mention poor ethics! :x