Author Topic: which .375 h&H for first big bore? (Read 2057 times)

rusty75 · « **on:** October 01, 2004, 04:34:50 AM »

I am torn between the CZ550 American Safari ($665) and the winchester Model 70 classic safari express ($979) . any input on reliability, fit and finish, and out of the box accuracy would be appreciated. Also, are these good prices?

Lolly · « **Reply #1 on:** October 01, 2004, 06:43:14 AM »

Also consider the SAKO 75 Hunter in 375 H&H. Less than $900 with sub MOA accuracy out of the box. IMO, quality is superior to CZ or WIN. Also comes with SAKO rings and bases. See my other messages.

Lolly

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #2 on:** October 01, 2004, 09:14:27 AM »

rusty75

"]I am torn between the CZ550 American Safari ($665) and the winchester Model 70 classic safari express ($979) . any input on reliability, fit and finish, and out of the box accuracy would be appreciated. Also, are these good prices?[/quote]"

I have a M70 Classic Stainless. Not sure I'm capable "sub MOA accuracy out of the box" with a rifle of this caliber but the M70 is quite accurate with mine shooting 1.5" moa with a 2.5X scope. I compared the CZ, the M700 and the Browning A bolt to the M70 (actual rifles in a several gunshops) and picked the M70. All were nice and I'm sure serviceable but the M70 fit me well and had features that the others lacked. Fit and finish of all was acceptable with the M70 and the CZ being equal and the M700 trailing by a considerable margin. As to reliability I have not had a single problem what so ever. It feeds all styles of bullets from plinking round ball loads, cast bullets (Lyman 377449), SPs and RNs without fail. Have not seen a Sako 75 Hunter in three six bits but have seen other Sakos, they are nice but like I said; I picked the M70.

Suggest you inspect several makes at local gunshops and then make your own choice, you are the one that has to live, shoot and hunt with it. Within reason, money should not be the object with a rifle of this caliber and all rifles mention fall within the parameters you mention.

Larry Gibson

Lawdog · « **Reply #3 on:** October 01, 2004, 10:51:06 AM »

rusty75,

If I were you I would go with the Winchester. I still keep hearing about problems with the stocks(even on the American) and other items. If you are going to get a .375 H&H got one that is a CRF and not a PF. Lawdog

Questor · « **Reply #4 on:** October 04, 2004, 04:18:17 AM »

I've been shopping for them too. It's really striking how different the offerings of various manufacturers are. I personally don' t like either the CZ or the Classic Stainless in 375. (I have a CZ 270 and feeding is awkward and it changes its zero too much when the weather changes. The Stainless classic is just too light for my tastes. I'd want a heavier gun. The Safari model is attractive, but doesn't have a synthetic stock.

Questor · « **Reply #5 on:** October 04, 2004, 04:20:24 AM »

Lawdog:

Why is controlled round feed important to you?

Lawdog · « **Reply #6 on:** October 04, 2004, 10:17:15 AM »

Questor,

Quote

Lawdog:

Why is controlled round feed important to you?

For all the same old tired reasons that have been said before. To me a .375 H&H is a cartridge used for dangerous game. Game such as bears, wild boar and African dangerous game. I want an action that doesn't jam while feeding like a push feed can and has. I have seen push feeds do this and I won't have a rifle designed for dangerous game that isn't a CRF. I know many people say that PF don't jam in good modern rifles. Tell that to the guide in Alaska that got chewed up within the last year that was using a Sako PF in .416 Rem. that jammed at the wrong time. He no longer uses that rifle while guiding/hunting bears. Lawdog

Lolly · « **Reply #7 on:** October 04, 2004, 11:59:52 AM »

"Sako PF in .416 Rem. that jammed at the wrong time"

I have to agree that CRF is important for dangerous game scenarios should hunter and rifle be oriented in an awkward position. BUt on a technical note I believe that SAKO do not make a caliber larger than 375 H&H and have read PH feedback noting the SAKO for excellent reliability under tough conditions. I know that certain African PHs had reliability problems (extraction issues related to the length of the cartridge ) with Ruger 77 MKII in 416 Rigby which is a pure CRF action and I believe Ruger is working on correcting this. So unless, the Alaskan guide had a SAKO converted to 416 Rem (which is not recommended) the 416 Rem that jammed could not have been a SAKO. Also, I have read that the 416 rem factory appears to be a "problem" round with occasional pressure spiking and extraction difficulties in some rifles :-)

If anyone wants no-nonsense ruthless articles written by African PHs about dangerous game rifles/cartridges that are suitable/unsuitable in the field, let me know and drop in a link

Lollypop

Lawdog · « **Reply #8 on:** October 04, 2004, 12:50:20 PM »

Lolly,

Quote

BUt on a technical note I believe that SAKO do not make a caliber larger than 375 H&H and have read PH feedback noting the SAKO for excellent reliability under tough conditions.

The guide that got mauled is Scott D. Newman of Petersburg, Alaska and he WAS(not anymore as he changed to a Winchester M70) using his Sako in .416 Remington Magnum at the time(April of this year) and the rifle jammed on him when he short stroked the action as the wounded Brown Bear charged. The story first came out in the Juneau Empire on April 28, 2004 so if you get in touch with them they should be able to give you Scotts address. And this is not the first Sako in .416 Remington Magnum I have seen or heard about. Not saying Sako are not great rifles just PF shouldnt be used for dangerous game. Lawdog

Lolly · « **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2004, 01:15:54 PM »

Lawdog,

I concur regarding CRF for dangerous game, :? I am just VERY interested in finding a SAKO in 416 Rem Mag. I was looking for a SAKO in the .4 caliber, could not find anything and was told by Beretta/SAKO that they do not exist unless the smaller rifles are "post-processed". I emailed author of the Juneau article for more info.

Anyway, short-stroking any kind of feed type in dangerous extreme stress conditions will lead to malfunctions and the emergency room.

Lolly · « **Reply #10 on:** October 05, 2004, 06:30:41 AM »

Lawdog,

Communicated with Scott Newman and you were right. His rifle was a Sako but it was rebarreled to 416 rem mag (as I guessed it was if it was Sako). Not a good idea since the the 416 rem is substantially more than 375HH and the Sako action V is designed for the 375 HH max.

Anyway what really interested me was Scotts comments in that he had "nothing but good praise for the 416" yet still felt he needed something bigger. I really believe that the 375HH is more than adequate for any North American and most African dangerous game. Shot placement here is what counts. Even a full magazine of misplaced 460 Weatherbys in a brown bear is really going to p...s him off and land the shooter in a hot spot.....!

Lawdog · « **Reply #11 on:** October 05, 2004, 08:59:58 AM »

Lolly,

Quote

Not a good idea since the the 416 rem is substantially more than 375HH and the Sako action V is designed for the 375 HH max.

As long as the action work was done properly that is no problem re-barreling to a .375 H&H to .416 Remington. And I agree with you when you said,

Quote

I really believe that the 375HH is more than adequate for any North American and most African dangerous game.

I would be willing to bet lunch that the .375 H&H is the number one back-up cartridge of bear hunting guides. But sometimes even great shot placement doesnt work. That is why most guides tell the clients to put in an insurance round just to make sure. In the situation with Scott as the hunter I would not have let my guide go in alone after a mistake I made. Lawdog

leverfan · « **Reply #12 on:** October 06, 2004, 07:17:39 PM »

Quote from: Lolly

I am just VERY interested in finding a SAKO in 416 Rem Mag. I was looking for a SAKO in the .4 caliber, could not find anything and was told by Beretta/SAKO that they do not exist unless the smaller rifles are "post-processed".

Look on page 74 of the 2004 Beretta catalog. The new Sako Big Game Deluxe, with iron sights, is made in 416 Remington Magnum. It only costs about 3 times as much as my first car. It's built on the Sako V action.

I just checked the berettausa.com website, and the 416 is still listed there, too. The catalog number is JRSD238. The weight is listed as being less than 8 pounds, so it should have a good whallop on both ends.

Lolly · « **Reply #13 on:** October 07, 2004, 08:21:01 AM »

Yup,

Sako surely does make the 416 rem mag ! Whew...after all that! Well, I am very happy with my 375H&H and believe that with familiarity and as much field training as possible, it will not fail me. :-D

Lollypop

Bill T · « **Reply #14 on:** October 09, 2004, 09:38:21 AM »

Rusty,

I have 2 .375 H&H rifles at the moment. One is a Browning A-Bolt Medallion Grade with B.O.S.S., the other is Winchester Model 70 Safari Express. Both are very accurate, but I would give the edge to the Browning. It's more accurate with the BOSS, and I think the fit and finish is better. Thats not to say there is anything wrong with the Model 70, I just prefer the Browning. I have a few pictures at http://groups.msn.com/wtill Just click on "Bills .460 & Others" at the bottom right corner of the page. There is a pic of the Browning. If you surf around there is a pic of my wife holding my Model 70 Safari Express in .458 Winchester, which is basicly the same gun as the .375 H&H in that model. Bill T.

Ramrod · « **Reply #15 on:** November 19, 2004, 03:12:11 PM »

Bill T, where are the guns?

fe352v8 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 19, 2004, 07:51:49 PM »

I do not know Bill, Melanie, or Sam but the advice was nice and so were the rifle pictures, and Melanie even more so. I may be old but there is nothing wrong with mixing beauty and ballistics. Your comment was rude and uncalled for.

jon

kutenay · « **Reply #17 on:** November 22, 2004, 12:59:14 PM »

After reading this thread, I would add the following. I had a friend whho re-barreled a Sako Fiberclass to .416 and it was light; I shot it from the bench and the recoil was noticable. I have seen and handled a factory Sako in .416 Rem. at a store in Vancouver, B.C. they have also had one of the new Safari Deluxe Sakos, I examined it and it was overpriced for what you get.

I have also seen and handled a Brno 602 that was re-barreled to .416 from .375, not a wise idea unless the 'smith really understands crf rifles.

I have now owned six .375H&H rifles and used them for work in wilderness areas of B.C. while working alone in Grizzly country. These were a Brno 602, a Ruger MKII Magnum, a Browning FN-LE Safari grade and three P-64 Mod. 70s. Of all of them, the Ruger was an ill-balanced club, the Brno was poorly finished and not well balanced, the Browning shot superbly, functioned well and kicked like a drunken Mule while the old Mod. 70s performed best.

I know people who have had pushfeed rifles "doubleclutch" when being bluffcharged by a Grizzly and one of these was a Sako; these guys are very experienced, professional bushmen in B.C. I had a Ruger pushfeed do the same thing when suddenly confronted by a Grizzly at about 20 yds, in Oct. '79 at Whiteswan Lake in B.C.

For a serious .375 H&H rifle, I would pick a Dakota 76, a P-64 Mod. 70 or an older Mod. 70 Classic over anything else available. I currently own a very nice factory P-64 and two factory H&H modified P-64 actions and prefer these to anything else. The Dakota is also very nice and works very well, mine is a .338Win. Classic, but, I would get the Safari model for Grizzly work.

I base these comments on many years working for the B.C.Forest Service, the Alberta Forest Service and various private consulting firms engaged in technical forestry work. this commenced in 1965 and I have spent months on end, solo, living in the most densely populated Grizzly areas of western Canada. I will NOT use a pushfeed rifle in Grizzley country because I want the advantage of the slightly more reliable crf design.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 25, 2004, 03:46:14 AM »

My vote would be for you to look at the SAKO 75 Hunter in 375 H&H. I have an older Sako in 375H&H. Made in 1960. But what a shooter it is.

DUGABOY1 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 26, 2004, 10:35:48 AM »

Quote from: Lolly

Lawdog,

Communicated with Scott Newman and you were right. His rifle was a Sako but it was rebarreled to 416 rem mag (as I guessed it was if it was Sako). Not a good idea since the the 416 rem is substantially more than 375HH and the Sako action V is designed for the 375 HH max.

Anyway what really interested me was Scotts comments in that he had "nothing but good praise for the 416" yet still felt he needed something bigger. I really believe that the 375HH is more than adequate for any North American and most African dangerous game. Shot placement here is what counts. Even a full magazine of misplaced 460 Weatherbys in a brown bear is really going to p...s him off and land the shooter in a hot spot.....!

LOLLY, I don't have a dog in this fight, but to clarify this some, The guide that was hurt useing the SAKO rifle was hurt because of the PUSH FEED action, not the 416 Rem Mag, or re-barreling of the rifle, the rifle was indeed a 375 H&H, and the guide shot the bear, in the tight alders, the bear charged at once! The problem came when the rifle was short shifted leaving a loaded round in the loading port, and stripping off a second round as he closed it the second time, jamming the bullets of the two rounds into the chamber so tightly, it required tools the clear later. The only reason he was not killed is, the first shot hit the heart, and the bear died while mauling the guide! The jam happened because the rifle lacked the IDIOT PROOF feature of CRF, nothing more or less! The first round he stripped off, but didn't chamber, and withderw the bolt instead, would have been ejected from the rifle on a CRF action, leaving the bolt free to pick up, and chamber the second round! I love Sako rifles, but I will not use a PF action in a dangerous game rifle! Others may do as it suits them, as long as my butt is not on the line with them! :eek: :lol: