Author Topic: The use of pistol powder in large rifle cases ie the 45-70  (Read 1652 times)

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Offline Cottonwood

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cases ie the 45-70
« on: December 23, 2004, 10:20:38 AM »
Greeting guys

Well yesterday I recieved my free complimentory copy of Black Powder Cartridge News from Winter 2004, Issue #48 The artical that I read has merrit.

In this issue of BPCN that I got (Winter 2004, issue #fourty eight) there is a good artical on "More on Ringing Chambers" which is caused by using smokeless powders to duplicate black powder fps loads.  Unique, Green Dot, 2400 that are used for pistol cartridges is OUT after what I just read... in the long run you will ruin a barrel with long use with any of these powders.  I am lucky with the H&R Ultra barrel so far, because I have not nearly shot enough probably.... I won't know unless I have it checked under magnification for even multiple rings.  

The artical is rather to long to re-type here.  But someday I just may re-type the whole thing and post it for others to read... they can continue to use these pistol powders if they want to.  I on the other hand will discontinue the use of Unique and stay with a powder that was developed for the 45-70 and large case calibers such as AA 5744.

Your thoughts on this matter.

Offline Longcruise

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2004, 10:37:12 AM »
Quote
Your thoughts on this matter


Couldn't agree more!  Don't know why those powders are so popular in the 45-70 when AA 5744 and others such as 3031 and 4198 are so good in the 45-70 (I've probably overlooked some other good ones too).

I have used 2400 is some specialty loads with round balls and sabots but it's a whole different ball game.

Offline 44 Man

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2004, 11:01:31 AM »
Should have my BC 45-70 out of layaway soon.  (Hey, it almost Christmas, that's a good reason!)  Been doing as much reading as I can.  Seems a good load is 5744 and 400 gr cast bullets.  I like to find a load the gun likes, then stick with it.  That way you learn the gun and where it shoots at various ranges.  I'm not one of those guys that likes to try endless loads in their gun.  Give me one load and I'll always know where the gun shoots when I pick it up.  A buddy of mine is always having to verify his sights before he takes a gun in the woods because he doesn't remember what load he sighted it in for last.  44 Man
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Offline riverjackal

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Winter 2004 Issue # 48
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2004, 11:58:31 AM »
Montanan,
 I can't get the above link to work, I was wondering if you could paste the article into the forum. You wouldn't have to type it that way. I would like to see the article since I use Unique powder quite often.

Thank You and Merry CHRISTmas

Riverjackal

Offline MSP Ret

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2004, 12:46:17 PM »
same request here Montanan, do you think a cut & paste is possible? My favorite load for my 45-70 is 28.0 grains of 2400 in front of a 350 grain Hornady bullet (from memory, haven't checked my load book). I do not want to damage my chamber but I hate losing that load also. My next best is a 3031 load but the 2400 load is outstanding. I will give it up though if it could be harmful...Thanks for the info, I will not shoot any more 2400 loads until I check this out further,  Merry CHRISTmas....<><....  :o
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline 95Road King

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2004, 12:56:37 PM »
Montanan:
    I to would like to read that article. I've been using "BULLSEYE" and "CLAY'S. I use a 100 percent cotton ball as a filler. Have shot 300 +
 round's thru my BC and every thing look's fine. My only complaint using cotton as a filler, it look's like it snowed in front of shooting bench after 20
 or 30 rds.

Offline quickdtoo

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2004, 01:00:49 PM »
Jon, if you have a scanner, scan the article then save it and post a link to it or email it to those that want to read it.
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Cottonwood

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2004, 01:05:46 PM »
Guy's I have as a matter of fact the very same artical that a friend scanned and sent to me at my e-mail address.  They I will try and set these up on my web site.  Or I can send out to each of you if you send a request to my e-mail address The_Montanan@usa.com

It is quite interesting to say the least, but from reading the artical, I have used my last charge of Unique powder for 45-70 loads.  Yes it will give you great accuracy, but at what price should one pay for that accuracy.

I have gotten great groups as well from 52.0 gr of IMR 3031 with a 405-gr RNFP bullet.

MSP Ret it will be on its way shortly.

Jon

Offline MSP Ret

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2004, 01:14:31 PM »
Thanks Jon, It looks as if I will shedding a tear for my old favorite load, well, off with old , on with the new!!!....<><.... :)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline JPH45

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2004, 01:33:02 PM »
Briefly, can you tell us if the loads they are refering to use a filler? I use Unique a lot and have never used a filler in the 45-70 case with it, just can't seem to find the need to. There is also a lot of debate on the use of fillers and what constitutes the right way. One consensus that is agreed upon, is that a filelr of alny kind that is pushed in hard against the powder is NOT the way to do it. Far far far too many people have used powders like Unique without fillers and with no trouble for me to jump of the wagon on one article. I wonder what the folks over at castboolits.com would have to say.

I've not yet read the article, but I sure hope to get to.
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Offline MSP Ret

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2004, 02:16:07 PM »
Interesting article Jon, Thanks very much. I think I may just look into some 4198 or something else that might also be useful in my 7x57 or .280. I guess it's a little research and some friendly advice from you centerfire and big bore shooters after the holidays....<><.... :grin:
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Deadeye47

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2004, 02:26:44 PM »
:cry:  I don't know if I want to give up my 13.5 grains of Unique load or not.....I think I will wait to see more input on this....if may be one of those deals like...."Coffee is bad for you" type of things... :roll:
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Offline quickdtoo

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2004, 02:40:12 PM »
Gee, if I ruin my .45-70 chamber....what kind of rechamber can I get myself into :twisted: ...nah, what am I saying :eek: .....
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Deadeye47

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2004, 05:50:31 PM »
I read the article that The Montanan had and if I had a High End Sharps , Ballard,Mecheam or whatever I might be a little concerned but If I screw up my 80 dollar NEF barrel after several "thousand"????? rounds... :roll:  I just may segregate my Browning from using the "Unique" loads though.... :?  Thanks for the heads up Montanan... :agree:
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Offline Paul5388

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2004, 06:56:41 PM »
I don't have access to Montanan's article, but I don't think I have ever heard of a chamber ringing problem that didn't involve fillers.  I'm using 12.0 gr of Green Dot with 405's without any fillers and don't see how there could be a problem with it.

Maybe someone could post some details of the article?

Offline Trapper-Jack

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2004, 04:19:41 AM »
I read the artical about the same time that this thread was started.  Smokeless loads have interested me for a while and after some research I have settled on 23 grains of IMR 4759 that seems to duplicate pretty close to my black powder loads.

The first thing that jumped out at me in the article was that they listed the load of 17+ grains of Unique behind a 320 grain bullet as the load that was to fault.  Lyman lists 17.5 grains of Unique with a 322 grain cast bullet as a maximum load for the Ruger #1 and #3.  This is in their third edition of their cast bullet handbook.  In my reloading experience I have always been leary about loading at or past maximum recomended powder charges.  

I haven't used any Unique in the 45/70, but in my research most of the recomendations for a powder charge with Unique by private parties have been around 12 grains.  This has been with and without fillers.  As I understand it, a sure way to ring a chamber is to use a card wad on top of the powder and leave an air space behind the bullet.
Thanks,
Trapper Jack

Offline Deadeye47

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2004, 04:48:43 AM »
Paul...I had a copy of the article e-mailed to me and I would be happy to forward it to you(or anyone else for that matter) if you would PM me with your e-mail addy. :-)
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Offline Lone Star

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2004, 09:32:08 AM »
Lyman no longer lists Unique in ANY .45-70 load.  This may mean something, or not.  They do still list Unique in some .458 Win Magnum and .50-70 loads.....
  I've not used Unique in any of my .45-70s but have used BlueDot quite a bit - without fillers.  I prefer to use IMR4298 or AA2015 unless recoil is a real issue.

Offline Paul5388

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The use of pistol powder in large rifle cas
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2004, 03:59:02 PM »
Well, I finally got the article read.  I have some real problems with what was written, IF I understand the author to be saying all faster burning powders may be a problem.  I understand and agree with fillers and wads possibly creating some pressure problems, but I'm not sure the author was limiting his article to that situation.

Now, why do I have a problem with a prohibition on using small amounts of fast burning powder or, putting it another way, having empty case space?
(1) Not all loads completely fill a particular case.  I recently loaded some 7mm Mags with 68.0 gr of IMR 4350 and 139 gr Hornady JSPs at 3250 fps.  That's a pretty hot load by today's standards and yet, there is empty case space.  You can shake the case and hear powder moving like it belongs in a mariachi band!.
(2) Large pistol cases have used 25% of capacity or less for load densities for years without problems.  Even the .357 Mag has less than 25% load density when it is loaded with 3.0 gr of Bullseye and a 148 gr LWC.  Alliant shows a Green Dot load of 2.8 gr, but the case will hold 12.6 gr of Green Dot.  That's 22% of the case capacity.
(3) Pressure doesn't just peak at one point in a case, unless there is an obstruction of some sort, besides the bullet.  If it did, the new piezo transducer measurement of pressure would be meaningless, just as the copper crusher would be.  Of course, if there is an obstruction, like a wad or filler, the case is reduced by the thickness of the materials and can create excess pressure where the material is located.  This is especially true if you consider the filler/wad is compressing, instead of moving the bullet, and the pressure is building all that time.
(4) The physical shape of the powder has something to do with its ability to ignite easily and completely.  Even though two powders have roughly the same burning rate, one may be easier to ignite than the other.  A flake powder, like Blue Dot, Green Dot and etc., is easier to ignite than a ball powder, like 231.  That's the main reason magnum primers are recommended when using ball powders.  Even with the same burning rate, there may be a difference in length of time and pressure spike from ignition to complete burn out
(5) It has been a standard practice for many to use 700X or Bullseye in the 7.0-10.0 gr range to fireform bottle necked cases.  I haven't ever heard of chamber ringing from that practice and you know that's far from a max load.
(6) Some powders need a certain amount of pressure to perform properly.  2400 seems to be one that likes a higher degree of pressure to burn properly.
(7) 12.0 gr Green Dot with a 405 gr bullet doesn't compare too badly with a 7/8 ounce (382.8 gr) 20 gauge with 11.2 gr of Green Dot (velocity is 1050 fps for it and the .45/70).  

Of course, I could be wrong on all of this, but there sure seems to be many more factors involved than what was presented.  The main concern I have with less than 50% of case capacity loads is the possibility of double loads.  Therefore, I never let the case leave my hand, from the time I put powder in it until it has a bullet seated.