Author Topic: WHAT WOULD MAKE INTERCHANGING BARRELS NOT GO BACK TO ZERO (Read 1678 times)

CHRIS JONES · « **on:** December 11, 2004, 07:09:04 AM »

Just bought our first encore. Got a 30-06-.270, 50cal muzzleloader, and 7mm mag. Every time we change barrels , gun does not shoot back on zero as before. Are we doing something wrong. I bought all weaver bases and rings which I wish I had bought Leupold rings instead but they are tight. All rifles are scoped with either a Zeiss or a Leupold. Any help Please. Can't afford to keep buying ammo and resighting. Also do not reload and don't get a chance or have time to. Shooting 150 Rem. core locs out of 06, 150 gr Federal BTSP out of .270, 150gr nosler ballisitics Federal in 7 mag.

iisabigone · « **Reply #1 on:** December 11, 2004, 12:43:58 PM »

Hey Chris how much are you off when you are changing barrels. I just got both of mine set up. I was hopeing switching out barrels would not change the POI much but that is just wishful thinking I guess.

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 11, 2004, 02:56:27 PM »

the only thing I can think of is that maybe your barrel is touching your forend, is it free floated or does it contact the forend, it is possible that every time you put the forend back on it might be contacting in a different place. Just a guess. Mine all keep thier zero.

CHRIS JONES · « **Reply #3 on:** December 12, 2004, 02:55:39 AM »

The 30-06 was dead on shooting slightly under 1" groups when we set it up. When we put the .270 on and set it up, it was doing pretty much the same. When we put the -06 barrel back on it s elevation had not changed but was hitting 8 inches to the right. A few shots and it was back on but this would have surely cost us a deer. I really don't know enough about the encores to know if they are free floated or not. I just slid a piece of copy papy under the barrel and down the sides of the synthetic forearm and it feels free. The mohagany forearm let a piece slide down the side but not back at the trigger mechanism or under the very front. That is usually how I test my bolt actions to see if they are free floated by pulling a dollar bill under the front of the barrel to the back. If ther is another way to check, I would like to know.Although it hasn't made much difference which gun we put the barrels on, they still haven't been very consistent when changing barrels.

Do these guns like heavier bullets say as in Nosler partitions versus the ballistic tips or BTSP. I have noticed in the 7mag and the .270 that the NB tips do not shoot as tight of groups as I would like. So far the 50 cal muzzleloader shooting 295 gr. hollow points is the only one that returns to zero. It was purchased so we would have 2 rifles to interchange barrels. I actually sold all of my other guns with the exception of my ruger # 1 in 300 weatherby mag in order to save money on guns. I have been picking up the barrels for around $229.00 a piece at Ga. outdoor sports. I figured it much cheaper to buy a barrel and scope it versus a new rifle. I would really like to solve this problem so I can buy some more barrels. I love the styl, feel and build of these rifles. I am a lover of the 405 winchester and the 35 whelen. These barrels I can buy way cheaper than I could have Remington's custom shop do the whelen and I'm not even sure where to find a 405. Sorry so long winded. Just need help as we are newbies to the Encore.

TnEncore · « **Reply #4 on:** December 12, 2004, 03:27:48 AM »

I have never had that problem, but I bet it is the forearm. Try some washers or maybe pillar bed it.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #5 on:** December 12, 2004, 04:08:11 AM »

Chris,

Let me see if I got this straight. You are taking a single frame, with two barrels each with their own scopes permanently mounted, using the same forearm for both barrels, and they each shoot to a different point of impact after removing the barrel and remounting it. Am I correct in this observation?

From that it sounds like the only thing that is changing is the forearm tension.

CHRIS JONES · « **Reply #6 on:** December 12, 2004, 11:35:05 AM »

Thomas, I actually bought two rifles. One was in wood with a 30-06 barrel for my son and I bought a camo synthetic for myself in a 50 cal muzzleloader. I purchased a .270 and a 7mm mag barrel and we have been interchanging them from either rifle depending where we are going to hunt and how long the shots may be. I have a different scope mounted on each barrel. Like I had said the 06 was so decent that we decided to get rid of all our bolt actions and go strictly with barrels and scopes. I had always been a believer in the 1st shot being the one that counts and the single shot wasn't an issue. Even the 300 Weatherby I kept is in a Ruger #1 which is single shot also.

If it is my forearm, what would I do to correct this? I am really excited with these rifles and am ready to order the 35 whelen and the 405 Winchester for it. I just want to make sure the problem can be solved. I would also like to thank all of your responses and wish you a very Merry Christmas. God Bless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2004, 12:31:09 PM »

Quote from: CHRIS JONES

Thomas, I actually bought two rifles. One was in wood with a 30-06 barrel for my son and I bought a camo synthetic for myself in a 50 cal muzzleloader. I purchased a .270 and a 7mm mag barrel and we have been interchanging them from either rifle depending where we are going to hunt and how long the shots may be. I have a different scope mounted on each barrel. Like I had said the 06 was so decent that we decided to get rid of all our bolt actions and go strictly with barrels and scopes. I had always been a believer in the 1st shot being the one that counts and the single shot wasn't an issue. Even the 300 Weatherby I kept is in a Ruger #1 which is single shot also.

If it is my forearm, what would I do to correct this? I am really excited with these rifles and am ready to order the 35 whelen and the 405 Winchester for it. I just want to make sure the problem can be solved. I would also like to thank all of your responses and wish you a very Merry Christmas. God Bless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So if I understand this correctly when you take remove and reinstall the same forearm on a barrel it shoots to the same POI. If you put the other forearm on that barrel it shoots to a different POI?

Try putting a rubber O ring or washer between the barrel and the forearm on each and see where they shoot.

Can't tell without looking at it what could possibly be wrong, but just try swaping the forearms on the barrels leaving the same frame on, to isolate the problem to the forearms. If problem continues with the forearm only swap, then try the O ring to increase the clearance between the barrel and forearm.

Hope this helps.

By the way I am also looking for a 35 Whelen Encore barrel, but I want to find a 15" stainless. Might be a while before I find someone who has one and wants to part with it.

CHRIS JONES · « **Reply #8 on:** December 12, 2004, 02:21:45 PM »

I know what you mean on waiting. I have wanted the whelen for years but could only find it in a rifle barrel from Remington custom shop. I didn't know too much about the encores or contenders at that time so I could have had one much sooner. My son and I have been avid handgun hunters for two seasons now but have yet to get one with the 454 casull in Ruger. I bought a forearm and pistol grip off e bay for my rifle and I am looking for a deal on the .257 savage. By the way I notice Larry Weisun (spelling may be incorrect) uses Swarovski scopes on his pistols. They don't make a pistol scope that I know of. I see him shooting 45-70 with rifle scopes with head upon handgun. Have you ever tried that? Thanks for the tips. I will try some rubber O rings. I never thought much about it but the 7 mag is a thicker barrel than the .270 but doesn't require a larger forearm. Won't hurt to try. I do construction work out of town so I will let you know the results when I get back next Friday night and shoot them all again Sat. Thanks for everything.

Chris

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #9 on:** December 12, 2004, 02:36:48 PM »

I have an '03 Springfield sporter in 35 Whelen and it is a nice rifle. I like the cartridge and if I get lucky in the elk drawing this spring and draw a general bull tag in the unit I like, I will try to take him with an Encore pistol. That's the use I have for the Whelen. Right now I have a 15" 30/06 that would also work fine if I can't find a suitable Whelen barrel by then.

All of my Contender and Encore pistol barrels, except for one Luepold, wear T/C scopes. They are a good value and they have worked well for me. I have a number of them with the illuminated rectiules, which I really like the best.

I especially like the new rubber grips for the Encore. Takes a whole bunch of the shock out of the heavy loads.

5Redman8 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 12, 2004, 04:22:53 PM »

Chris,

I understand exactly what is going on and had the same experience myself. I even got a VVGC Lone Wolf fiberglass stock, pillar bedded and completely floated....read as much as possible with an Encore..... Never had enough confidence to switch from one barrel to another during season. NEVER!!! Did find out that a floated/stable forend helped as well as an oversized hinge pin but it did not help to restore 100% confidence that I require.

This is all past tense as I have now sold ALL Encore stuiff I had. Multiple VVGC barrels with scopes, 50cal MZLDR with scope, Lone Wolf stock, and frame are all gone.

I had the same original thought as you...one frame with many barrels, think of all the calibers I can have. I then found out that changing barrels during the season was not going to work. Pretty much like having one rifle. All of this was after perfecting loads and loading techniques, spending MUCH time shooting...often getting GREAT groups! But I am, as we speak, having a BOLT gun built from the $$$$ from my Encore.

My advice is play with it...you have already shot it. Tweek it as you may and hopefully you find a combination that is up to snuff for you. Or use it as a one fram per barrel setup. Frames can be had for about the price of a new barrel.

Good Luck,
Kyle

Keith L · « **Reply #11 on:** December 13, 2004, 12:10:55 AM »

I have two Contender frames and a bunch of brarrels (rifle and pistol) and they hold zero each time I change them. They do go back on the same frame. I use one frame for rimfire and another for centerfire. I wonder what is different on the Encore that it changes?

armory414 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 13, 2004, 11:45:10 AM »

Chris, you might want to look into a barrel hanger-bar system. Check out websites by Bullberry Barrel Works or Ol' Georgia Jim (not sure if he has them, or just makes forends that fit them). Essentially, you are replacing contact between barrel and forend with contact between barrel and metal (the metal hanger bar). You then attach the forend to the hanger bar. This has the same effect as "floating" your barrels by removing contact between wood and metal. This may be varying every time you change forends, because every time you screw on the forend you may apply slightly different pressure depending how far you tighten the screw. With the hanger bar, this should be eliminated.

A second thing you might want to look at (and this is less likely, but conceivable) is to make sure that the frame's hole for the drift pin that holds the barrel to frame is not over-large, causing side-to-side play in the barrel. This would also affect accuracy, but you would probably see this from shot to shot, not necessarily just between barrel changes.

mag41vance · « **Reply #13 on:** December 13, 2004, 02:05:27 PM »

I would say in all confidence that screw torque, is the culprit.
I discovered this when my single shot NEF lost zero after removing the barrel for a good cleaning.
The solution is to remove enough forend material away from the lugs that they are a tad loose with the screw tighten all the way against the lugs. Also counter sinking the screw holes a bit deeper will loosen the forend a bit. Next get rubber washers that will snug the forend with the screws bottomed out.
The other thing you could do is reinstall the forend to a specific torque setting every time, and forget about the washers.
Consistent pressure is the key.

mikemayberry · « **Reply #14 on:** December 13, 2004, 04:05:21 PM »

Seems like I'm the only one that ever asks about whether you are shooting a clean or fouled barrel.

You mention nothing about cleaning or shooting a fouled barrel.

If at reinstallation you have a clean barrel, it may take 3-5 shots to get it back on the normal track. Many of the guys on here wait to clean until season is over to avoid the problem.

Something you said about the -06 shooting level but right made me wonder if the cleaning could be the culpret.

Hoping this helps with the mystery.

Mike

5Redman8 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 14, 2004, 03:52:35 AM »

I had the HANGER bar on all my barrels and ALWAYS fouled the bore before grouping or hunting for that matter.

Even with all the extras.....hanger bar, fiberglass stock, oversize hing pin, pillar bedding, custom handloads that would shoot less than a half inch at 100yds, etc....POI changed as often as I switched barrels. I even tried torquing the forend screws to the same weight each time....no dice!!!

The way I dealt with it was to leave a barrel on for the entire season. But I chose to no longer deal with it and sold everything only to buy a custom bolt gun.

Kyle

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 14, 2004, 08:37:23 PM »

Don't know what to tell you redman. I have never had any trouble with switching barrels, and they always hit right on. I must have just been lucky.

RickG · « **Reply #17 on:** December 15, 2004, 08:15:57 AM »

I solved this problem by buying a foreend for each barrel. Then change only the buttstock. I get them from Gunstocks Inc (www.gunstocksinc.com) you have to refinish them and work the barrel channel to float your barrel but once sighted they stay that way.

Rick

CHRIS JONES · « **Reply #18 on:** December 15, 2004, 02:24:24 PM »

Due to advice from my gunsmith, we run a dry drag string through the barrel after each shot. Maybe this could be my problem, but I only do this when sighting in. I notice when we had the Ruger 308 that it woul fly away on a clean barrel. Had to foul it wit a shot in my back yard before heading out into the woods. It shot groups under a dime when the barrel was fouled. We also have been using Cabellas extreme sight vice this year instead of bags. I don't think it would cause any problems because the buutstock cradles at the shoulder and the forearm still sits on a small sand bag. Do you think either of these would be an issue?

rp · « **Reply #19 on:** December 18, 2004, 08:25:12 AM »

All I have is the 209X50 pistol. I've been planning on a stock and barrels very soon. After all this the H&R handi-rifle is looking better and better.
Read back through all the "soultions" for a problem that should'nt exist.
A forearm for every barrel, a fittle fart here, a tad of torque there. The cost of this product is disheartining. I'm a lefty and sold a Weatherby bolt gun for the $ to get the Encore. I wonder if sinking mucho dinero on forearms and barrels and a stock is a wise chioce. I'm a T/C guy but what the hell is going on with the Encore. I already sent mine bact to have the trigger "fixed" because it was over 12 POUNDS on day one! They "fixed" it 1/2 a$$ to about 7. Maybe I'll sell it before all the bad talk drops the value of it.

CHRIS JONES · « **Reply #20 on:** December 18, 2004, 06:29:57 PM »

After all I have read, I have come to the conclusion, the TC wasn't such a good idea. I am going to keep the 30-06 0ne the one rifle and the muzzleloader on another. Talked to the gun store today and am going to trade .270 and 7mag barrel for another bolt action. Haven't decided what caliber yet. Anyone need a pistol grip aand forearm for a hand gun. Also will have a camo forearm for rifle. Can't afford the ammo to keep zeroing in these rifles. Glad I kept my Weatherby in the Ruger #1. I really am dissaponted due to the cheaper price of barrels and the several different calibers. Tc has lost my vote.

Flash · « **Reply #21 on:** December 25, 2004, 03:14:10 AM »

T/C shouldn't have lost your vote! Try zeroing your bolt gun and taking the stock off several times and expecting it to hold it's zero. I use the same two forearm screws and mark them for front and back. Masking tape records the reference of the screw head slots such as 10 -clock, 4 o-clock, etc. There are a few steps that should be taken for repeatable zeros but it's not the fault of the gun if it doesn't happen. T/C's do hold their zero and do it consistantly.

new shooter · « **Reply #22 on:** December 28, 2004, 08:27:14 AM »

been t/c shooting for many years and have taken barrels from any of my frames and interchanged......and never an off shot......if the scope or sights are affixed properly, ( and its not wacked ) the bullets point of impact "CAN NOT" change. And, if by changing the forearm, the point of impact changes, when tightened properly, then throw away the barrel.

Thats just my opinion !

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 28, 2004, 04:35:26 PM »

If the barrel is floated from the forend there is no trouble with changing pressure points from forend/barrel contact.

CHRIS JONES · « **Reply #24 on:** January 01, 2005, 12:33:14 AM »

Well, I lost most of my deer season re sighting rifles. I spent hundreds of dollars on ammo and hunting season is over here today. For me it ended yesterday with no deer. Luck of the draw I guess. I kept the 30-06 on one frame for a truck gun. Light and easy enough to walk through the woods with. I also kept the other frame with the 50 cal muzzleloader. I am not changhing any barrels as I don't have any extra ones anymore. I traded my barrels for a new Sako in 7mm Mag. Cleaned the bore backed up 100 yards and punched two holes in one. Zeroed her in 1 and 1/2" high at 100 yards and rang the bell at 200. Now the only thing left to do is get Remington to make me a 35 whelen. and try and get some new bolt actions for all the ones I done away with to go to the TC. Thanks for all your info everyone and may you all have a blessed New year and may God watch over you.