Author Topic: Gun transfer to Felon???? (Read 970 times)

Will Bison · « **on:** July 16, 2004, 09:38:41 AM »

A friend of mine was convicted of a felony a number of years ago in California. The felony was posession of a machine gun. He was also convicted of several lessor counts, loaded gun in a vehicle, improper transportation of a firearm and possession of a destructive device.

The "machine gun" was a stock AR-15 that occasionaly would double when fired. A previous owner had probably tried to do some back yard gunsmithing on the trigger mechanism. My friend was unaware of the malfunction.

California called in ATF and had them inspect everything for possible Federal charges. ATF said that nothing violated Federal law and handed the situation back to the State. The recommendation from ATF was to have a competent gunsmith repair the AR-15. California, after shooting several hundred rounds through the AR-15, got the thing to fire two rounds with a single pull of the trigger.

All of the other charges he was convicted of wouldn't even garner a raised eyebrow in our home State of Nevada.

Now to my question. My friend wants one of the rifles on my C&R list. He is guilty of California specific laws, laws that don't exist in Nevada or for that matter in a lot of other States. He was also exonerated by the ATF.

Can I transfer the C&R rifle to him? I am really confused on this one. I did check the ATF web and just became more confused.

I forgot to mention he paid the fine and served the time, lost his car, lost all the other guns he had with him and generally had a really bad hair day.

lindylars · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2004, 10:13:21 AM »

I was under the impression that all C&R obtained firearms could only be transferred to other C&R and dealer FFL holders (with such transfer recorded in your book, their book, etc). An exception, at least I'm assuming this is still the case since I haven't had a C&R for a bit now, would be pre-1898 weapons which legally are not "modern" firearms. I know of dealers in the past who have shipped out "antique" Mosin-Nagants because their receivers were pre-98s. But now you've really started to limit yourself to some fairly useless, and depending on condition, potentially HIGH dollar items. (Anyone who wants to send me an original Sharps rifle in serviceable condition for safekeeping just give me a holler, I'll even dust off your Trapdoor Springfields :grin:)

So unless he himself was an FFL holder, I'd say NO. You could transfer ownership to another dealer who could sell it to a private individual but now we are really running into areas where all paranoia/big brother alarms should be ringing loud and clear.

Otherwise if this was a non FFL obtained weapon you could transfer ownership to whomever you are comfortable with...that being said, and no offense to you or your buddy, even then I wouldn't go there just because the risk factor to yourself and your friend isn't worth it in my opinion.

Is he still a resident of California? If so, I'd do my darndest to get his record straightened out as best as possible. Under Nevada laws, would he be allowed to own a firearm (if he was a Nevada resident of course)? You/he could also check with the ATF to see if he could qualify for a C&R license, which may or may not be an out (doubtful). You should talk to the ATF regardless, if nothing else to CYA especially when it will be on the line like it will be if you pursue this further. This is why I mentioned that if isn't worth the hassle on anybody's part no matter how you look at it.

Sorry for the grim outlook, but that how I see things as they go under our current laws. Best to you and your friend.

Regards,
Ron

Castaway · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2004, 10:28:07 AM »

I'd pose the question to the ATF and get their answer in writing with an original signature on their letter head. I don't use reloading data passed on through the net until I check it out myself and I sure wouldn't rely on advice from a forum, no matter who says it when it comes to intrepretating gun laws that I may end up serving time for.

PaulS · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2004, 01:51:14 PM »

By all means ask the ATF. As I understand the Federal law is that no FELON can own, possess or be in control of any firearm. It doesn't matter whether it is auto theft or assualt.

PaulS

NRAJOE · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2004, 01:54:18 PM »

Felon=no gun EVER! :shock:

rickyp · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2004, 04:47:09 PM »

have your friend file a law suit aginst kalifornia and make them remove the record. once they remove the felonly he could own a fire arm.

It sounds like your friend should have gotten a better lawyer

Rogue Ram · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2004, 04:53:29 PM »

You are not getting the entire story from your friend. Why would California cops have gone to all this trouble in the first place? Maybe he got caught with an unregistered "assault weapon", and the cops pushed this, and found it was doubling? I might buy that, but with him even asking about guns makes me think he's not telling you everything.

No one is "exonerated" by ATF, ATF doesn't do that. They may have issued a written opinion of examination of the weapon, but that's it, and if he has that opinion he'd stand a good chance of being acquitted by a jury.

Under NO circumstances can anyone who is convicted of a felony or misdemeanor domestic violence ever possess a firearm again, unless conviction is overturned or the record is expunged (and that being they only have 1 felony on their record). Records rarely are ever expunged because there are very few circumstances where it is allowed.

Take it from a cop that has dealt with many "felons in possession of firearms/ammunition", you are not getting the complete story. Don't let him handle your guns, your ammo, or even let him near your stuff. Tell him to take up archery (unless Kalifornia has rules against that too :roll: )

Be safe

RR

Robert357 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2004, 07:55:37 AM »

Quote

Can I transfer the C&R rifle to him

No.

I am not sure what level of crime it is for a felon to be in possession of a firearm, but you certainly would be nothing less than an accessory to the crime.

You should probably contact your local police department and tell them the story, as I would wager it is against the law for a convicted felon (who has not has his rights restored) to try to purchase a firearm. While you are at it, might want to call BAFT, as it wouldn't surprise me that part of the fine print in the C&R regulations is to report all potenial illegal purchases.

If the fellow is an upstanding citizen and wants to own a firearm, he should go and get his rights restored by a judge.

In fact I find it very very strange based on what you know about this person that you would either seriously consider a sale or that you would ask others for advice.

P.S. As a citizen of this country you have a responsibility to see that its laws are enforced. You need to accept personal accountability and go to the appropriate authorities. I am sure you would not ignore a hit & run, nor refuse to call the police if you saw a shooting.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2004, 09:34:57 AM »

i read a report of the same problem. a gun owner had ar that doubled he asked ATF what he should do to repair it. they told him send it back to colt. he did and they siezed it. they then test fired it until it doubled and charged him with possesion of a machine gun. one of the many scary stories i've heard about the BATF.

rickyp · « **Reply #9 on:** July 18, 2004, 02:36:50 AM »

Quote

i read a report of the same problem. a gun owner had ar that doubled he asked ATF what he should do to repair it. they told him send it back to colt. he did and they siezed it. they then test fired it until it doubled and charged him with possesion of a machine gun. one of the many scary stories i've heard about the BATF.

This person should have never asked the question, anyone with at lease some common sense would know to take it to a gun smith of send it back to the maker.

Robert357 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 18, 2004, 06:51:08 AM »

Quote

...anyone with at lease some common sense would know...

Good comment. Unfortunately, common sense doesn't seem to be too common.

Buster · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2004, 04:42:05 PM »

No. A person with a felony conviction cannot posess a firearm at all. Posess is defined legally as touch.

Do not be taken in by this sort.

Will Bison · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2004, 05:59:51 AM »

I think I get the idea, thanks for your responses.

Now that I think about it I guess it was a dumb question. I'm sorta new at all this C&R stuff.

Thanks again.

Flash · « **Reply #13 on:** July 24, 2004, 03:44:49 AM »

Also, a firearm has a very broad defination and will most likely include a C&R. In Pennsylvania, a firearm can be defined as being powered by spring and compressed air. This is by the Game Commision but their legal reach is equal to the local and state police. I would appologise to your friend and not wind up like him!!!!

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #14 on:** July 25, 2004, 06:44:42 AM »

Quote from: Rogue Ram

Under NO circumstances can anyone who is convicted of a felony or misdemeanor domestic violence ever possess a firearm again, unless conviction is overturned or the record is expunged

You forgot the fact that LEOs can possess firearms despite a felony conviction, but not if they have a "domestic violence" conviction.

It sure was fun watching the FOP whine when they found out that LEOs would not be exempt from the domestic violence ban. I think the lawmakers didn't realize that cops and wife beaters could be the same people.

I agree with you that the story the felon is telling to get Will to sell him a gun is running my BS meter off the scale.

rickyp · « **Reply #15 on:** July 25, 2004, 09:18:23 AM »

Quote

LEOs would not be exempt from the domestic violence ban. I think the lawmakers didn't realize that cops and wife beaters could be the same people.

Domestic violence is not just wife beating, It is also includes the two 18 year old brothers (or sisters) that are fighting in the front yard over what ever kids fight about. it can be the 19 year old sun comming home drunk from a party and gets caught by his dad and takes a swing at him.

It doesn't matter if the son has never hit hid dad before and that he neve tried again or if the two brothers are just being kids it is still called domestic violence. That law has hurt a lot of good LEO and potnual LEO, hunters.
That law is desinged to help disarm people in the name of protecting women. It is to vage and covers way to much to be anything else. Now having said that I do believe that repeat offenders ( true wife beaters and husband beaters) should not have a firearm unless they can prove they have sought help and are no longer a danger.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 05, 2004, 02:33:25 PM »

Because of such abuses by BATF, and as horrible as laws are against non-violently owning an item, I am generally resolved to know enough about a gun to be able to fix such a malfunction myself. I'd have bought myself a new trigger group and swapped it out, and destroyed the old one.

Gun owners in this day and age should learn to do the same. So, so many incidents have happened where a gun owner has been entrapped and canned because of something that was never their fault.

People need to take responsibility for their own guns in order to stay free.

Flash · « **Reply #17 on:** August 06, 2004, 02:07:42 AM »

BattleRifleG3, you are absolutely right. The Fed's definition of a gun that fires multiple rouinds with only one pull of the trigger is considered class 3. Multiple doesn't mean 2, 22 or 222. By definition, the AR was a machine gun and should be repaired....by the user. I've heard of guys buying cheap 22 semi automatics that someone had doctored and were letting four to five rounds go before jamming. If that were one of my purchases, the trigger would come out immediately and be pulverized into oblivion.

FDemsEMT · « **Reply #18 on:** August 06, 2004, 08:01:22 AM »

NO NO NO <<<<< till he clears his records!!!!!!

pete50 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 01, 2005, 05:22:00 PM »

Gentleman,

I beg to differ with all the stories about people being arrested for sending in a malfunctioning weapon to the manufacturer for service. That is a LOAD!!! I have just been browsing posts here and I must say that the paranoia here is simply amazing!!! It's almost comical. You guys actually belive this crap!!!! I would not hesitate to send a malfunctioning weapon to be fixed, even if I had ATF fixing it, lol!!! This ranks right up there with "I only had two beers and they got me for DUI"

1) I dare you to find an ATF agent......anywhere, go ahead, look. When you call an office you are talking to an assistant, not an agent.

2) Agents are not that well versed in guns...yes, I know you think they are....your wrong. They also don't walk around saying "Your papers, please" dressed in black nomex and helmets carrying obviously malfunctioning AR-15's (cause they shoot more than once at a time)

3) They are not that well versed on the law, and apparently it's contagious.

4) Does this story even make sense to a live human? My buddy only has 1 felony and they won't let him have a gun....those damn FEDS!!! Your buddy is full of crap, too. REMEMBER - FELONY = BAD!!!! - easy, huh??

5) NO ONE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THESE UNITED STATES IS BORED!!! EVEN ATF...there are only 2200 or less agents for the whole country, and a good # are assigned at the lab and HQ. IF they all chased simple malfuctioning gun cases, there wouldn't be anyone to answer these questions in writing!!!

6) I would always get "in writing" answers, from any government agency.....good advice, period!!!

7) I can't even see local law enforcement going after a lame double tap malfunction case unless......the owner did an illegal modification to make it fire full auto, and/or the cops hate the guy personally/professionally. Even then, I doubt it.

This would be the functional equivalent to your car catching on fire due to a fuel leak or faulty wiring - then being arrested for arson!!! Once again, does this make sense?

9) I have personal knowledge of the police and ATF - I didn't hear this info from a friend who knew a guy, that had a cousin, that worked at a gas station, where they fixed the wife of an ATF assistant's car!!!

"I've heard of guys buying cheap 22 semi automatics that someone had doctored and were letting four to five rounds go before jamming. If that were one of my purchases, the trigger would come out immediately and be pulverized into oblivion."

Why not just get the parts and fix it?? or get your money back? Unless your are buying post dated two party starter guns out the back door of a bar or in an alley? Then I guess you wouldn't have anyone to go back at for the $$$, huh?

Maybe it's that crap ATF gets frustrated about???

jh45gun · « **Reply #20 on:** January 01, 2005, 06:17:03 PM »

All the other stuff aside one comment was made about only selling to license holders. As far as that goes I am positive you can sell to anyone old enough to own a firearm and to your Knowledge is not a felon. Since you do not have to run back ground checks or even have the ways to do it you can sell to your best buddy if you want as long as you write in your book who you sold it to and get his drivers license # or C&R license if he has one. Jim

Mikey · « **Reply #21 on:** January 02, 2005, 02:16:51 AM »

pete50, Robert357: the advice of this moderator is simply - if it is illegal, don't do it. If you don't know whether it is legal or not, check with the proper authorities. If you are in any doubt at all, don't do it. Period. Mikey.

jgalar · « **Reply #22 on:** January 02, 2005, 03:45:49 AM »

To knowingly sell a firearm to a felon is illegal.