.45-70 Cast Progress

[Leftoverdj]

Those of us casting for the .45-70 in Handis have found that accuracy disappears with plain base bullets past 12-1300 fps. It's been plumb frustrating. Gas check bullets work at far higher velocities, but all I have are plain base moulds.

I ran across a box of .45 pistol GCs in my shop and remembered hearing about seating a GC upside down under a PB bullet. Tried it with 405 cast over 50 grains of  3031. Discounting the first shot from a cold bore with old lube residue in it, four shots went into 1 1/4" at 50 yards. Counting that first shot, the group was under 3".

The GC bulges the case a mite and I had one shell that was hard to chamber so I'm going to size the next batch I use. Got a lot of tinkering and shooting to do before I make a firm conclusion, but this looks promising.

[JPH45]

That velocity is just about what I've seen too. I'm also pretty convinced at this point that my molds are undersize for the task at hand, I'm dropping 457 bullets and need something more like 460, but in every Handi barrel I've got 1300 seems to be the accuracy ceiling for plain base bullets. There has been one exeption, but I can almost as easily chalk that up to the rotaion of the earth and the alignment of the planets.

Off the subject a little, I know you prefer full velocity loadings of your cast bullets and rifles, but have you done any work with lower velocity loadings in you 7.62x39 using pistol powders like Unique, or 2400?  (2400 is not really a pistol powder, but...)

[Fred M]

My friend casts bullets for the 45-70 and a 2" .458 Magnum. He wraps his bullets with 5 wraps of plumbers Teflon tape gets good velocity and great acuracy.  No lube. This gun kicks like a mule with these big slugs, I think they are 400 gr FB. I remember something about 1700 ft??? He shoots a Browning SS. You guys remember that old song " I don't want her you can have her, she is too fat for me"  :-D  :-D  :-)

[Leftoverdj]

JPH. it's on the agenda. I have a six 160 grain PB mould that casts big enough. Some very limited shooting says I can easily get the 7.62x39 to give groups under an inch at 50 yards at about 1100 fps. I'm also playing with an 80 grain PB in a 25-20.

Fred, that 50 grains of 3031 was right up around 1700, too, and it kicks right smart. I can't chrongraph that load because the loose GC is a danger to the chrony. If I get anywhere with this, I'll have to rig a shield.

[44 Man]

I've heard that the soft gas checks will solve this problem.  You know, they are made from wax or beeswax.  I want to try them with Pb cast bullets but my gun is still in layaway.  Anyway first thing is about 30 gr of 5744 and 405 gr cast flat nose with the soft gas checks, I'll let you know if it works.  44 Man

[JPH45]

DJ, I was asking because it struck me that the little Russian is very close to the 357 Max and 44 Mag in capacity, turns it is a shade bigger, at 30 grains of usable capacity (water) as compared to 27 and 25 respectively. The 30-30 is 37.5. I've not done a lot of cast shooting with my 30-30, having been discouraged with lousy bore dimensions and my previous struggles with my 357 and 44. It finally dawned on me that the solution would be a bullet slightly over groove diameter....Gee, I wonder where I heard that before :roll:  :grin:

Then NEF says they are going to offer a 7.62x39 barrel. Hmmmmm.....Guess askin' for a 30 Whisper barrel is a bit much, how 'bout a 30 carbine?

I'm going to take a week of vacation in pay, one thing I'm going to get is one of those itty bitty Lee molds, either the 113 or the 120, both are groove diameter bullets, and should be capable of shooting good. I really do want to try some of those 311-150-2r's. Your Lyman 170 grainer shot pretty well, it measured 305-307 on the bore rider if I remember.

As to my 45-70, well I'm still having a love hate relationship. I really want a 400 grain bullet at 1400-1450 fps, but there are just no powders that are consistant at that velocity. Perhaps I am paying too much attention to the chronograph, because the groups I get with 3031 at that velocity are not unreasonable for a woods hunter. (two inches at 50 yards, if it was a handgun I'd be braggin' :grin: )  

I saw Vances articles down on the cast bullet forum. That's some good work you two have cooked up, I'd just like to have something better than a 6" 50 yard rifle before I plunk a deer with a 30 cal cast bullet.

Edit: I forgot, when I was playing with that WC 846 that squibbed on me, two bullets were driven to the muzzle, one almost exited. It has definate marks BETWEEN the rifling, leading me to believe that my barel has some very slight burrs at the muzzle. I've been wanting to have it re-crowned, but have not had the money to do so. If I get this done this year I'll let you know if it improved things any. I've got a pair of machinist magnifiers at the shop, just haven't brought them home to examine this situation.

[Ed Hill]

Last month I was at the range adjusting the new sight on my Buff. My bullet order hadn't shown up yet so I was using some locally manufactured cartridges with a 405 bullet. I was getting sub 2" groups at 50yds. I let a Shiloh Sharps owner try the Buff and he did better than I had. He was very impressed and came back with some 3031 loads that performed well in his Sharps. Went to about 6" groups! His loads were much hotter and I think that was the problem.  His bullets were 405 Lyman at 20-1 and sized .460, so they should have worked well.  I haven't tried any regular gas checked bullets, but understand they perform as well as the jacketed bullets do.
 
E.D.

[Paul5388]

I am in the process of putting another scope on my .45-70 and haven't shot it lately, but I have been getting close to 1" groups at 100 yards with store bought plain based 405 gr Brass Plus bullets.  I'm only pushing them about 1050 fps, so that may account some for the accuracy I'm getting.  I can do the same with 300 gr Rem JHP's and 405 gr Rem SP's, but I don't push any of them faster than 1500 fps.

DJ,

Why can't you crimp those small GC's on the rifle bullets?  I am using some .359" Beartooth's that have .357" GC's on them.  They will shoot close to 1" at 100 yards out of a standard .357 Mag Handi.  OOPS, I forgot that you only have plain base moulds.  It might be worth a few dollars to try some Beartooth's that you can get sized all the way to .460".
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm
You'll have to pull the left hand slider down to get to the .45 rifle bullet selection.


Over All Length 1.030
   
Nose To Crimp .450
   
Meplat Dia. .310
   
Diameters .458", .459", .4595", .460"

[Ed Hill]

Paul, what loads are you using with the brass plus bullets?
E.D.

[Paul5388]

E.D.

I'm using Starline or R-P brass with a Win LR primer and either 12.0 gr Green Dot (1055 fps) or 12.0 gr Universal (1028 fps).  The Green Dot load is almost 1/2" better at 100 yards, but either one should be sufficient for deer and/or hogs (the Taylor KO is 27.6 on the Green Dot load).  I don't use any fillers with either load or the 20.0 gr Blue Dot I use with a 300 gr Rem JHP!

I used a 4X Tasco to shoot that group.

I corrected the primer information to read Win LR primer after I checked my notes again.  The recoil, 9.67 ft lbs,  is less than a .30-30.

[Leftoverdj]

44Man, I tried the CF Ventures Softchek, but they don't work as well as the inverted GC.

JPH, recrown your own rifle. I use a round head brass screw with the head a bit over calliber. Just charge the head and slot with fine valve grinding compound and chuck it into a drill. Put the barrel in a vise vertically. line everything up straight, and run the drill 20 seconds or so. The absolute worst that can happen is that you will still need a recrown. It's one of the things I do automatically on the least suspicion. Never made one worse, and I've made several a lot better.

The Lee 113 grainer has not impressed me. It's a decent enough 50 yard plinker, but I do not need a GC bullet for that.

[Longcruise]

I really want a 400 grain bullet at 1400-1450 fps, but there are just no powders that are consistant at that velocity.

I've gotten good results with H322.  Varget for a bit more speed.

sized .460, so they should have worked well.

Unless the barrel is actually slugging out to .459 or .460, it would seem that would be a bit oversize.  I have a 385 grain mold that pops out wheel weight slugs at about .456 and they shoot good when aged two weeks and nor attempt to harden :?

I'm inclined to think that the problem with getting to 1400 + is more a matter of bullet hardness than lack of gas check.

Just my .002 cents worth :-)