Author Topic: 223 or 243 (Read 2466 times)

22KHornet · « **Reply #30 on:** November 02, 2004, 10:18:37 AM »

Ahhhh, Elmer Keith, that explains why you seem to think you need a howitzer.

From an Elmer Keith article:

THE VELOCITY FALLACY
This old saw that "only velocity kills" is a fallacy and you are better off every time with a long, heavy bullet that will expand some and penetrate! Likewise, you ruin far less meat on a small deer with a 275-grain .338 or a 300-grain .375 than with any of the ultra-high-velocity, light-bullet loads. For elk, moose and big bear, I prefer not less than a 250-grain .338-caliber bullet (a 300-grain is better and a .40-caliber is better still) and this opinion is from a lifetime of experience, not armchair theory!

I would rather shoot elk with a 250-grain .358 than with any of the 7mms and .300 Magnums with 150- to 180-grain bullets. Even in the .30-06, if I were forced to use it--God forbid--I would stick to the Federal 200-grain boattail or the old soft-nose 220-grain slugs for real penetration and killing power.--June 1982

Of course we all know that Elmer Keith was (and is ) a highly regarded gun writer that brought us the great 44 mag but really, this is a little voodooo science. With the proper bullet construction speed kills plain and simple, its call hydrostatic shock. Elmer Keith might have had a different tune if he had been able to use some of today's bullets over what was available 50 years ago. :wink:

I know and old rancher that tried to dispatch a cattle killing trapped bear with his 45 long colt and factory loads. After using up his five shots in dismay he returned to the truck to fetch his ruger ranch rifle in 223 and dispatched him with one shot.

Next thing I know someone is going to bring up the Taylor Knock down power :roll:

Cottonwood · « **Reply #31 on:** November 02, 2004, 11:36:50 AM »

Recently I was watching a great outdoor show on, The Outdoor Chanel. I missed one of the kills by a 10 yr old girl using a Superlight H&R in .243 Win but all her shots were One shot, one kill on the hog at approx 80 yards, four horned goat at approx 100 yards, and the watutsi cattle more than 10x her size at approx 80 to 100 yards all done with a .243 Win with iron sights.

Seeing was believing it. :eek:

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #32 on:** November 02, 2004, 12:09:02 PM »

Shucks, Now I have to tell my grandson that Fred called him a nimrod. He is only 11 and shoots a 243 youth handi. So far he has taken 4 shots at deer, hit 4 deer with lung shots, and tagged 4 deer. Here lately it seems that if I disagree with someone on a forum they pull out the big names. Cooper, Keith, etc. Well I have read Keith's writings and frankly I disagree with what he has to say about smaller bores. He is dead on about large bores. I think Keith is so down on smaller calibers because Jack O'Connor likes the 270 and even has praise for smaller bores. Keith did not like O'Connor and would never agree with anything he said.
BTW I just told my grandson he was a nimrod. He smiled and said that's ok cause in the Bible it says Nimrod was a mighty hunter.

edited by me with an apology to Fred

bubba · « **Reply #33 on:** November 02, 2004, 12:40:59 PM »

It will die for sure after 250 yards across a fence where it says No trespassing. trespassers will be prosecuted.That almost happened to me two years ago when I shot a deer through the ribs with a Nosler Partition bullet it almost made it over the fence.

I guess if I was going to hunt so close to private land I would get permission from the land owner to recover game if it crossed the fence before I hunted so close. If I couldn't get permission I guess I would not hunt so close to the property line. Some guys just like to gripe about things they have not had luck with.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #34 on:** November 02, 2004, 01:06:53 PM »

Contrary to popular belief the term "nimrod" does not refer to a new or beginning hunter or fisherman. It originally referred to an accomplished outdoorsman, a great compliment really. It's just those that do not know it's true meaning that try to use it to describe a beginner....<><.... :grin:

Fred M · « **Reply #35 on:** November 02, 2004, 01:08:33 PM »

Bubba.
That farmer would let the deer rot before you get a court order to retrieve it. Nothing like pointing the finger at some ones alleged neglect. eh? I thought I add that we hunted the area for 25 years, you would think in all that time we got permission to walk on his land. He is mean and beats his wife, Fred M

gwhilikerz.

Quote

Now this may get cut or edited after it hits the thread but Fred I think it is you who is full of BS.

I find this remark very offensive and insipid. Perhaps you should take reading lessons so you can interpret what I wrote Mr wise Guy.

bubba · « **Reply #36 on:** November 02, 2004, 02:26:42 PM »

Then as I said I would not hunt that close to the border. Whether or not he is mean and beats his wife and kicks his dog is immaterial to my point. My point was why hunt so close if there is a chance of that happening. I don'n care what you use for a gun, if you don't put the bullet in the right place you have a mess to clean up whether it is a 22-250 or a 300 winmag or anything else.

Fred M · « **Reply #37 on:** November 02, 2004, 02:49:26 PM »

Bubba.
Thanks for the brilliant wisdom of your lecture. No wonder they made you the moderator. Keep up the good work.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #38 on:** November 02, 2004, 02:49:44 PM »

Fred, I believe the high shoulder/spine shot is the shot of choice when you don't want an animal running away on ya. I used to hunt the Goat Marsh area of Mt St Helens before she blew her top. It was a popular area and soon got too popular. If a hunter shot an elk and it didn't go down immediately, it would run and someone else would have their tag on it by the time he found his animal. I saw more than one disagreement where 2 hunters said they shot an animal and argued over who was gonna tag it. Needless to say, we quit hunting there long before the mountain changed things forever. But, when ever I want an animal down now, as is the case when hunting mountainous areas and you don't want an animal to run down the canyon making recovery real hard, or in your case, running to unaccessable property, the high shoulder shot is number one in shot placement as far as I'm concerned.

Fred M · « **Reply #39 on:** November 02, 2004, 03:10:50 PM »

quickdtoo.
That deer was the only one that ever ran out of 15 I shot over the last four years. I dropped more than that but I kept track of the one shot kills with the 25 Hunter. Yes your shot will do it, I was using a Nosler Partition that whistled right through. I went back to the Hornady Inter lock this year and made a one shot kill on an Antelope with the 25 Hunter.

I am going to use the Ruger#1 25-06 the day after tomorrow with the 100gr Barnes-x Triple shock bullets. I have heard of some failures with this bullet by not expanding, but I am going to use them anyway. With a frontal shot I would be able to recover the bullet.

I have three tags hope to find out the scoop on these bullets since they are so incredible accurate. I let you know so you can load up some in your 25-06. Fred M.

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #40 on:** November 02, 2004, 03:17:52 PM »

You are right Fred. I should not have stooped to bs throwing. I do apologize

bubba · « **Reply #41 on:** November 02, 2004, 03:26:11 PM »

I tmust be tough to be so wise and so critical Fred. Some people other than you have opinions and dont have to run people down when theirs is different. This is the last I will reply to any wit and wisdom you post because obviously no one can come close to your infinite wisdom on it appears every subject

bubba · « **Reply #42 on:** November 02, 2004, 03:33:07 PM »

or as my Long gone Father used to say "your mind is already made so no sense confusing you with the facts." If you would like to carry on your line of insults and snide comments by all means send them in a pm and I will gladly respond one on one. and FYI I am not a moderator on this forum. I wasn't sure if you understood that or not

quickdtoo · « **Reply #43 on:** November 02, 2004, 03:55:02 PM »

Fred, good luck on your hunt and I'll be looking forward to your report on the triple shocks.

Tim

Jack Ryan · « **Reply #44 on:** November 02, 2004, 08:29:06 PM »

Quote from: TrapperZach

i wasint tryin to start any trouble on here or nothin sry. but i will be mostly hunting fur for the fur and want a gun i can take out durin rifle seson and shoot a deer humanely.

I think you'd be happier with the 223 than the 243.
It's a little hot for dispatching trapped critters but still plenty for a pretty fair varmit gun.

They are designed for 55grain or less bullets but I think you'd be all right if you are careful with that bullet on deer and the 45 grain varmit bullets are very accurate and cheap to shoot.

You've just got to know your gun and what that calibur will do. Big heavy bullets need to hit big heavy stuff or they zip right through with little damage. Little bitty bullets fragment quickly and need to hit a soft spot in the vitals, that's all.

I've seen many deer shot with a 22-250 and never seen one take a second step. Off course they weren't shooting to break the shoulder and back, they were shot broad side through the lungs and close as ya dare to the shoulder or quartering away on the heart shot.

Either way when gutted those deer looked like the whole heart lung conglomeration was run through a blender and poured back into the chest cavity. I wouldn't have a second thought about takeing those same shots with the 223 and any bullet designed for use with the rifleing in a handi rifle out to 150 yards. That deer would be as dead as a beef cow at the end of the shute.

TrapperZach · « **Reply #45 on:** November 03, 2004, 12:56:15 AM »

ok so whenn i go deer hunting with it and its standing broad side how far back from the shoulder shoud i ame?

bubba · « **Reply #46 on:** November 03, 2004, 01:33:18 AM »

Fred do yo uwant to field that one

Cottonwood · « **Reply #47 on:** November 03, 2004, 02:26:30 AM »

Quote from: TrapperZach

ok so whenn i go deer hunting with it and its standing broad side how far back from the shoulder shoud i ame?

Look at this little animation.... I do not teach a hunter to shoot for the upper shoulder as the cross hairs are doing here in this animation, but into the second area that is lower and is almost a sure heart lung shot, where upon you will not damage should meat.

Fred M · « **Reply #48 on:** November 03, 2004, 04:54:37 AM »

Bubba.
Sorry Bubba, I don't want open another can of worms. But if I was shooting a 223. I carry one of those hinged shooting and walking sticks, put my back against a tree or fence post and shoot the deer in the head.
With the accuracy of the 223 this should not be a big problem.
This is not a recommendation, but my personal mode de employ.

Sorry about the verbal saber x-ings. No further comments on the subject.

PS. I am holding my breath for all my American shooting friends that my friend George Bush will win the election. God bless his soul. Fred M

handirifle · « **Reply #49 on:** November 03, 2004, 05:09:44 AM »

I'll bite.

Trapper, since you'll be using a 223, I would move for about 3" behind the elbow of the deers front leg. The 223 is way too light to try punching through a leg bone. Three inches behind will keep you well into the vitals.

As mentioned earlier here shot placement is everything, so I'd suggest you get the 223, load it with a bullet designed for medium game, like a Nosler Partition or comperable, and practice. I do not mean 10 rounds at a paper target from a bench. More to the tune of several hundred rounds from sitting on the ground, prone, with rifle over backpack, etc. even practice standing shots. If you cannot keep your shots within a 5" circle at whatever position and yardage you are shooting, you should not shoot at a deer under those conditions. Ie, if you can only hit a 5" circle from standing position at 80yds, but spreads out to 7" at 120yds, then do not shoot a deer, while you are standing, from farther than 80yds.

You owe it to the animal.

You'll be much more accurate from sitting or prone so expect the range to open a bit in those positions.

Listen to the advice of those on this forum for a bullet to use in the 223. The 22-250 is a whole different animal cause it has a huge velocity jump on the 223, even though it shoots the same size bullet.

Several companies make bullets that will work, just make sure you do your part and they will do theirs.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #50 on:** November 03, 2004, 05:57:11 AM »

I have stayed out of this discourse since I prefer neck shots and have never lost or had to track a deer with one. That said, Fred M., you and the majority of the citizens of the good old U.S.A. have thankfully gotten what they wanted, President George W. Bush for another term. Thanks God!!!
We will continue to have a strong leader we trust and put all our faith in to lead us through these difficult times....<><.... :grin:

marv · « **Reply #51 on:** November 03, 2004, 07:12:13 AM »

MSP RET, Thank God for enough realize John is and elected Grorge Bush.
Maybe we can go forward. I thought you would be in Maine by Now!

You'll probably gone in a few days, Good Luck. Marv.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #52 on:** November 03, 2004, 09:02:21 AM »

I call my buddy in Maine almost every night, he started trapping this year and has had luck on coyotes already. He went to my camp a couple of times last week and stayed over. He cleared a few shooting lanes and about a 1/2 mile path to the stream out back to walk there quietly in the dark pre-hunt hours without snapping twigs or rustling leaves. He carried a shotgun for birds and kicked out a deer. About 2 AM stepped outside to relieve himself of some extra fluids (no inside urinal) and after doing his duty stood in the moonlight a minute or 2 and had a deer blow at him a few times from inside the tree line of the field beside the camp. The deer finally could be heard running off through the woods...
This is a tough year for me, been looking forward all year to hunting at camp and now the framing of the new garage and addittion is in full swing. Questions and decisions to be made everyday. Also little problems and errors to be caught before they magnify themselves into insurmountable (read that expensive) problems later. I can't leave for a week or so at the earliest. My buddy from Millinocket is coming down for a wedding on or about the 13th and his wife is going to stay for an addittional week. Sooo, I am planning to go to Maine and give him a ride back after the 13th. The rut starts in earnest about the beginning of the 3rd week anyway, but to me the trip is being at camp and camp life. The hunting is a wonderful expierence, shooting a deer is the last jewel in the crown, so I always like to get up to camp early in the month and stay late, the longer the better....<><.... :grin:

zrexpilot · « **Reply #53 on:** January 06, 2005, 05:25:39 AM »

Well I'm interseted on which caliber you ended up buying. I personnaly use a .243 and have not had one bad expierence using it in 25 yrs of hunting.
I have had other guns too but I always liked the .243 better. hogs are no problem, have taken 200 lb'rs @ 250 yds with complete pass throughs. Deer were no different up to 250 yds through both shoulder bones again complete pass throughs. My son who is 16 has taken 4 deer and 1 hog and a javeline all with one shot kills, he took three this year and none went passed 30 yds, all around 125 yd shots. The .243 is more than adequate to take any North American horned animal and does so on a regular basis. Some people have magnumtitis and feel nothing smaller than the latest greates magnum is adequate for deer, and thats just not the truth. Some of the bigger calibers dont expand their energy into the animal and go through leaving not much damage, for whitetail deer the smaller faster calibers kill quicker, the little bullets totally mushroom or even fragmentate leaving totall distruction on internals, killing very fast. The down side would be on larger thicker game you prolly would not get the needed penetration from say a .22-250, but on whitetail its poison.

zrexpilot · « **Reply #54 on:** January 06, 2005, 05:27:09 AM »

Well I'm interseted on which caliber you ended up buying. I personnaly use a .243 and have not had one bad expierence using it in 25 yrs of hunting.
I have had other guns too but I always liked the .243 better. hogs are no problem, have taken 200 lb'rs @ 250 yds with complete pass throughs. Deer were no different up to 250 yds through both shoulder bones again complete pass throughs. My son who is 16 has taken 4 deer and 1 hog and a javeline all with one shot kills, he took three this year and none went passed 30 yds, all around 125 yd shots. The .243 is more than adequate to take any North American horned animal and does so on a regular basis. Some people have magnumtitis and feel nothing smaller than the latest greates magnum is adequate for deer, and thats just not the truth. Some of the bigger calibers dont expand their energy into the animal and go through leaving not much damage, for whitetail deer the smaller faster calibers kill quicker, the little bullets totally mushroom or even fragmentate leaving totall distruction on internals, killing very fast. The down side would be on larger thicker game you prolly would not get the needed penetration from say a .22-250, but on whitetail its poison.

zrexpilot · « **Reply #55 on:** January 06, 2005, 05:40:55 AM »

Quote from: 22KHornet

Next thing I know someone is going to bring up the Taylor Knock down power :roll:

I know what you mean, total BS ! people are ready to believe anything if it's in print, in a book or in magazine.
According to this theory a 44 mag is better than a .270, Buwahahahaha !
ya right. :roll: I can make up thery's too.
Ya lets say. Bullet diameter X velocity devided by inches of drop. the one with the higher number is a more proficient killer. This one would be a better theory, showing true power.