Author Topic: Help getting a .243 to shoot a group... (Read 1003 times)

redneckd1 · « **on:** January 05, 2005, 10:35:18 AM »

Ok a little explaination first:
1. I don't shoot as much as I should, but ain't a bad shot
2. Sighting in my son's Handi .243 with a new bedded scope/barrel floated
3. Shooting off crappy range sand bags, but had the bags under the hinge

Now, I shot the gun 30 times the first few were just to find paper and dial the scope close, not too bad, but what I discovered as I shot is that I could not get a group smaller than a couple inches. Now, I tried HARD to do my part and seemed to be shooting well, I even had two shots through one hole. However, it seemed like every 3 shot group would have 2 close (one inch apart) and one flier (an inch up to 3 inches from the other 2).
I bought this gun used and it only had a box of rounds through it, my son and I have shot 4 boxes through it, so the barrel should be breaking in to where it should settle in on some good groups.
Is it me? Or is there some other things I can do to help this gun become a tack driver?
Anyone know of a good gunsmith in the Fort Walton beach, Fl area that can do a trigger job on one of these?
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thx,
R

zrexpilot · « **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2005, 11:23:04 AM »

What ammo were you using ? Balistic tips wont group in my gun. Something about the coating on the bullets.

redneckd1 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 05, 2005, 11:30:49 AM »

Sorry about that, I was shooting Rem. 100gr core-loks, I don't reload so factory ammo may be a limitation. I would like to see sub MOA groups, but if I could just get 3 shots close to each other, that would be a great start. Don't get me wrong the gun will work for hunting deer, but I would just like to see some better groups. Thx again, this site is great!!!

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #3 on:** January 05, 2005, 11:57:10 AM »

What distance were you shooting? My grandson's 243 youth model will do around 1 to 1 1/2" groups at 100 yds. I know this is not great accuracy but it will certainly do for deer hunting. We also use Remington 100 gr. Core-Locts. They are the best I have found for this particular rifle. You have to be very aware of heat buildup with the 243 barrel. Be sure the barrel has cooled down between shots. We have a Mid-priced range Simmons 3x9 scope. I have not really tried all the tricks to get the handi to shoot better.

Duce · « **Reply #4 on:** January 05, 2005, 12:11:51 PM »

Redneckd1: Last year I bought a Handi in .270 it shot just as you describe, what I found was a loose scope mounting rail, this may be the reason it was sold. Next on my list would be the scope itself if it is new or new to you try one that you know is good. One thing you mentioned was

Quote

I tried HARD to do my part and seemed to be shooting well, I even had two shots through one hole. However, it seemed like every 3 shot group would have 2 close (one inch apart) and one flier (an inch up to 3 inches from the other 2). Sometimes if you have two shots together, you'll bare down trying to get the third one in there.

. This goes down to technique, Handi's can be sensitive to how you hold them, hold it the same everytime, and with the transfer bar follow through with the trigger. Hope This Helps: :grin: <>< Duce:

redneckd1 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2005, 12:49:49 PM »

I was shooting at 100 yards at a gun range with tables and sandbags. The scope mount was bedded this passed weekend with JB weld, even the gap where the contour starts, the mount is now permanently attached. The scope is a new Burris fullfield II, 3x9x40 and seems like a great scope, so I don't think that was it.
Now Duce, I did try to handle the gun the same everytime, but with a single shot it was a little harder than with my bolt gun, just the whole pick it up to load/unload deal. That may have been the problem along with the crappy sandbags that were at the range. Or maybe it was just me!!!
Thx guys!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2005, 01:02:01 PM »

From everything I've gleaned from this board, H&R barrels need lots of bullets down range before you see best accuracy. All of mine have pretty much shown that to be true, although I do polish the bore and chamber before I shoot em. It takes 60-80 rounds instead of 150-200 to see a good improvement. I use JB Bore compound and either a bore mop or tight fitting patch on a jag to polish the bore. Varmint Al has the procedure at his web site, I don't use moly bullet, though.

http://www.varmintal.com/ashot.htm#Break

oktx · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2005, 04:32:03 PM »

1. Try shooting 80 to 85 grain bullets. My son's 243 loves the Federal 80 grain Powershoks.

2. Is there a gap between the barrel and the breech face (daylight)?

3. Is there play in the action?

My son's rifle had all of these problems. It shot the Rem. Corlockts fair one day and all over the place the next. oktx.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2005, 08:22:21 PM »

Or it could be another problem all together...1 thing that can you can use to see if what I'm talking about is it...it's a cronograph...if...your scope and rails and rings are all good and tight and hasn't failed......your pulling the trigger all the way thru...you've cleaned your barrel properly...and your not firing it hot,and the barrel throwing your groups off...or something else causing the problems...then you might want to check what your ammo is really doing...I bought one several years ago when Chrony first offered them,and have used one ever since...and it will tell you just exactly what your ammo is doing...and I can honestly say...that it isn't always you or your gun...but some of the factory ammo being produced...I've seen as much as 150-200 fps difference in some of the bargin loads all with-in the same box...and as a reloader they are a invaluable tool for working up different handloads...and for a non-handloader...you can check the published velocities and set your scopes accordingly...now I'm not saying for certain that it is you ammo...but I've seen a-lot of crappy ammo lately coming from Remington...in all various calibers... and the funny part of it...the differences are usually over the normal velocities ...not under...so if you get the occasional flyer that will open your group up...and you know it wasn't your gun...or your shooting...then you might want to look into it...they are a worthwhile investment...and you won't have to take anyones word on just what kind of velocities your getting...

Just a thought...

Mac

redneckd1 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 06, 2005, 04:20:31 AM »

Quickdtoo - I didn't want to do the bore polish thing, since I'm not certain how many rounds have already been fired through the rifle, my son and I have fire 80 rounds, the previous owner didn't fire it much, but I'm not sure if 'much' is 5 rounds or 100 rounds. Maybe just a few passes to polish it, since a probably need to do the chamber anyway, 2 stuck cases yesterday.
OKTX - The gun seems very tight fitting, no daylight, slop in the action that I can detect. My son is using the gun for deer hunting, hence the 100grainers, I don't want to switch to 80-85r's until we go after some coyotes. That is part of the reason I want to 'accurize' this gun, if I can do it, I might but a .223 UV for myself!!!
Mac11700 - I see what you're saying, but I'm not that serious about it, if the factory ammo if off by a couple hundred fps there isn't anything I can do about it, I can't afford to get into handloading and chronies and stuff, I used to handload for pistols a long time ago, because I thought I would save money, turns out I spent more money, but got to shoot ALOT more for the money I spent. Unfortunately, I have neither the money nor time to dedicate to handloading.
I'll tell you what though, the benefits of having a website like this with the quality folks to ask advice from is tremendous. I wish I would of had a place like this when I was a kid, my folks didn't like guns and it was all I could do to beg them to let me have them, then I had to figure everything else out for myself (like you can't shoot 22lr in a 22WRM without splitting the cases and sticking them in the barrel!!)
Thx a bunch guys!!!!

oktx · « **Reply #10 on:** January 06, 2005, 04:36:44 AM »

My son has taken two texas deer with Federal 80 grain Powershok bullets, blue and black box. I understand that you want to use the largest grain bullet possible, we used the remington 100 corelockts also but his gun just would not group them. oktx.

superhornet · « **Reply #11 on:** January 06, 2005, 04:39:04 AM »

I realize that you already stated you do not have the time or the money to get back in reloading........But, by the time you buy enough factory boxed ammo of different manufacturers and bullet weights, you would have spent enough money to pay for a Lee type loader, 100 bullets and a couple different powders..........I went though the same thing you are going through........Then I found utopia (handload) using the 100grain Hornady BTSP with Varget powder, WLR and Rem brass. 100 yards = .45 inch five shoots, 200 yards 1.5 inch, 300 yards 2.9. Topped with a Burris scope.......Of course I can't shoot that good everyday due to old eyes and shaky hands......never did find a factory load that shot as good as the handload...IMHO

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** January 06, 2005, 08:10:04 AM »

Quote from: redneckd1

Quickdtoo - I didn't want to do the bore polish thing, since I'm not certain how many rounds have already been fired through the rifle, my son and I have fire 80 rounds, the previous owner didn't fire it much, but I'm not sure if 'much' is 5 rounds or 100 rounds. Maybe just a few passes to polish it, since a probably need to do the chamber anyway, 2 stuck cases yesterday.....

It matters not how many rounds have been shot, it's always possible that lots of rounds have been shot, but if it's not been cleaned well and has some jacket fouling built up in it, JB Bore compound is made to remove jacket fouling and at the same time will polish the bore without damaging it. Either way, a good bore polishing will be beneficial to accuracy. There was a recent post on AR discussing the excessive use of JB bore compound and the possibilities of it damaging a bore, everyone voted for its use and said it would not damage a bore and many had been using it for years in precision barrels. Improper rod use and not using a bore guide would cause damage just cleaning with solvents.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1160&title=J-B~+NON-EMBEDDING+BORE+CLEANING+COMPOUND

redneckd1 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2005, 08:16:44 AM »

Thx Quickdtoo, I think I will polish the bore and do so in my Ruger .270 as well!! I saw a link to a site with pull through cleaners 'pacthwork' or something like that, I think I'll try those. I have SS cleaning rods with brass bore guides, but I think those pull throughs will work just as well and no danger of damaging the bore. I've read where some folks say that most people do more damage cleaning their bores than shooting them and may be better off by never cleaning them. I'm just a little too OCD about maintenance to allow that!!!
Thx,
R

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2005, 08:25:39 AM »

The Patchworm is pretty much all I use anymore, even doing the bore clean up. As long as you pull the line straight out the muzzle, there's no fear of damaging the bore. I just ordered 2 more of the rifle kits and 1000 patches for a total cost of $30 and change. The rifle kits work on .22 thru .45 cal. I also recommend WipeOut foaming bore cleaner once the bore has been polished and is shooting good for great bore maintenance.

http://www.eabco.com/WipeOut.htm

redneckd1 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 06, 2005, 08:40:28 AM »

Thx for the link, I was going to search for it, but once again this site and the fine folks on it come through first!! Have you ever used the felt pads they sell, just wondering if they are necessary or not. Thx again!!!

flintlock · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2005, 08:44:41 AM »

redneck....I would encourage you to try the Federal Premium 85gr BTHP
It works great on deer...I killed about 75 with the Core Lokts...Have used the Federal 85 gr for about 3 years...Between me and a couple of buddies it has accounted for 28 deer...I don't own a Handi...but I understand that they usually group better with the lighter bullets in .243...Good Luck...

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2005, 09:19:13 AM »

Quote from: redneckd1

Thx for the link, I was going to search for it, but once again this site and the fine folks on it come through first!! Have you ever used the felt pads they sell, just wondering if they are necessary or not. Thx again!!!

No, I haven't but I've read of others that really liked them for use in their rimfires. They also have some that have some super intensive felt pads that have brass fiber interwoven in them that probably would work well for bad fouling, specially lead fouling, too bad they only offer them in .22 and .30 cal, I could really use em in my .50 cal muzzleloader, the all lead powerbelts are notorious foulers.

MINNESOTA DICK · « **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2005, 01:27:51 PM »

Have you checked the crown of the bore? It could be your problem.

bja105 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 06, 2005, 04:47:37 PM »

My wife's handi in .243 was shooting 2.5" with 100g win and federal factory rounds. I didn't have much time to play with o-rings, bedding, or extensive load development. I loaded some hornady 100g round nose with varget, groups dropped to 1.5. Good enough for her to kill her first deer. Now I have time to play with it more.

In your case, try to find the factory ammo with the shortest bullet. Shorter bullets are supposed to fly better from the handi's slow twist. I doubt you'll find factory round nose, but the lighter spitzres are shorter, too. Boat tail bullets are long for their weight, so look for flat base bullets. Look on the ammo maker's website, they give recommended game for each load, find the lightest ones with the little deer pic next to them. I don't recommend the lighter nosler ballistic tips.

The problem is more likely with the rifle than the load. Try the o-ring if you haven't, yet.

One more thing, take a few rifles to the range, and shoot them while you let the .243 cool after every shot. You'll be hunting with a cold bore.