.45-70 Recoil in a Handi-Rifle

[Steve in Michigan]

How bad really is the recoil of a .45-70 handi-rifle? Can you equate it to standard caliber rifles? Can anybody compare light, medium and what they would consider heavy loads to anything else? Does it kick more than say a 12-gauge pump? I'm not terribly recoil-sensitive. I have a M95 Steyr carbine in 8x56R and I can take that recoil. I guess I would stay away from the .45-70 handi-rifle if it pounds you every time you shoot it, but the lure of a big bore shooting cast bullets is very tempting. I guess the highest I'd probably go is a medium load with say a 350-405 grain bullet at nominal velocities. Any good comparisons would be appreciated.

[quickdtoo]

Using the figures in the recoil table link below, the 45-70 will generate 19-24ft/lbs recoil energy compared to 17-20ft/lbs in the 30-06 in similar weight rifles. The wood stock handi will have a bit less recoil than the synthetic stocked handi and a bit of weight can be put in the wood stock bolt hole for a little more relief. A good recoil pad like the Sims Limbsaver will make things even better. Probably the best advice if you are recoil sensitive is to shoot the lighter factory loads like the 300gr Rem and Winchester loads. They shoot well and the recoil is on the light side for a 45-70. Or some handloads are even better if you're into handloading, 28gr of 2400 and the 350gr hornady RN makes a nice load that is very accurate in my .45-70 but still very shootable from a recoil perspective.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

[JPH45]

About like 12 guage pump w/ 2 3/4" 1 5/8 ounce magnum loads. This is what I would consider 45-70 400 grainers at 1700 fps to be like. One way to think of it is that one ounce is 437 grains, so nominally, a 400 grain bullet at the same velocity of a similar load of shot at similar velocities is going to make similar recoil. One has to remember that the powder charge has inertia too, so the 45-70 will have a little edge on something like a 2 3/4" 1 1/8 ounce trap load (1275-1350fps) but I'm not sure there is enough felt difference to matter. I don't like such loads in a single barrel 12 either, and have about as much tolerance for anything discussed here.  The factory 300 grain HP's at circa 1800 fps fall into the heavy trap load recoil to me. Filling the buttstock with shot goes a long way to taming this light rifle.

To put it all in perspective, when the Army issued the 45-70 carbine to the Cavalry, there were a lot of complaints about the recoil. The 1873 Trapdoor Carbine weighed in at about 6 lbs. The Army issued a reduced velocity load to the Cavalry, using a 405 grain bullet over 55 grains of black powder. That load is probably good for about 1150 or 1200 fps. The 70 grain loading was generally considered a 1350 fps load with a 405 grain bullet.

Hope I didn't ramble too much.

John

[Woodbutcher]

Off the bench, all scrunched up with bad posture, it bruises. Offhand not so bad at all.
 Use a taller front rest off the bench so you sit more upright, and the problem is gone.                              Woodbutcher

[Joel]

I shoot the 400 gr Speer Flatnose at 1750 fps and the recoil in my 8.6 lb NEF(with the Maple stock/pachmyr recoil pad/steel triggerguard and spacer/scope/sling/barrelband/swivels and one round) is 26 ftlb at 14 fps; actually a little less than a heavy 12 guage, if I recollect right.  Shot 22 rounds through it today from the bench using an old half filled sandbag between the butt and my shoulder, with no problems.  Just shooting it off the bench with just a jacket, I"m good for around 5/6 rounds before flinching begins to sound like a good thing.

[Paul5388]

Steve,

It sounds like you may be a handloader, so that makes things a little easier.   A 300 gr Rem JHP with 20.0 gr Blue Dot will generate an average of 1450 fps at 15' (that's where I have my chrony set up) and it will have about 12.6 ft lbs of recoil.  You can shoot that all day, since it isn't much more than a .30-30!

I shoot some 405's at 1725 fps at 15' and the recoil is tolerable, even though it's 33.2 ft lbs, but I wouldn't want to shoot two or three boxes in one day.  My .45-70 weighs about 7.5 pounds with wood stock and a 4X scope.

[tscott]

Dick's had a 45/70 for sale some years ago used. Someone ordered and then backed out, so their policy was to sell used unfired. For $185 I took a shot. NEF lady said awful recoil. I bit and bought a Sims pad (slip on).
I shoot only factory coreloks. My experience is the .444. What a great big deer round that has been for me!!! At the range the 45/70 was no where near as advertised. I took the pad off and got my money back. I decided to leave the rifle unscoped for now, although I am always tempted.
I can't envision any better short range round than the .444, but the 45/70 seems close. The real benefit to all this for me is that I mounted a huntsman .50 muzzy barrel on the sb2 frame. I am shooting 1 inch groups with both at 75 yds. I do have a scope on the muzzy.
I'd be interested on thoughts of 45/70 vs .444.

[Joel]

ARGH Scott!!!!!!! Don't start that here!!! No,no,no.  Bad enough at the Marlin Big Bore Site...thought I left that behind.  Besides(heh), now we have the 45/70 vs. the 500 S&W controversy starting.  444 is passe, amigo.

[RussB]

......... A good recoil pad like the Sims Limbsaver will make things even better. Probably the best advice if you are recoil sensitive is to shoot the lighter factory loads like the 300gr Rem and Winchester loads. They shoot well and the recoil is on the light side for a 45-70. Or some handloads are even better if you're into handloading, 28gr of 2400 and the 350gr hornady RN makes a nice load that is very accurate in my .45-70 but still very shootable from a recoil perspective.

Yes, Sir....That "Limbsaver" made by SVL (Sims Vibration labatories).... right here in beautiful downtown Shelton, WA....is beyond a doubt, the best recoil pad EVER....period!

Now, if all that should sound a bit like I favor the Limbsaver, yer right!

But, not because it's made in my home town...Sims, and Trees is the ONLY thing this little Northwest town has to offer...Actually, it's because it truly does make all the difference in the world when shooting heavy loads.

Many recoil pads are there, simply because they're supposed to be, and don't do a thing other than cosmetics, and hang up on your clothing.  
Others require an even greater expense of installing "something" in the stock to counteract that force. While still others requires your barrel be drilled until it looks like Swiss Cheese.

A simple Limbsaver is all that is often needed to let one step up to a much more powerful round....if you feel more powder, and a heavier bullet is needed, you owe it to yourself to try one of these.
Less powder, less bullet weight,  is the prescription most often used to reduce felt recoil levels...it does not have to be that way, for those that are recoil shy.....and we all are, just a bit.
Just my thoughts.

Russ

[Ditchdigger]

I had a 4570 barrel put on mine,and with the first 20 shots off the bench it bruised my shoulder for the first time ever.
Considering I shoot my 300 Wby. off the bench all the time and never got a bruise, it really shocked me to have such a bruise. After I shot about 100 rds. through the thing,filled the stock full of shot,it finally got a lot easier to shoot. I shoot it now with 405's loaded to 1800 fps. and the 300's loaded to a little over 2000 fps. and its not bad at all. It must have had a tight bore or something,because some of these guns kick the tar out of the guys and some shoot allright. Digger

[gwhilikerz]

I think the 45-70 recoil thing is mostly hype. Sure it kicks, but it is not unbearable by any means. I don't think it comes anywhere near a 444 for recoil. (that dang thing has been known to turn me around when shooting).
Owners of the 45-70 sometimes stretch the facts about recoil of their pet rifle, kind of giving it a mystique.  Yes it can pack a wallop when reloaded hot.  I have had both the longer and the cavalry versions of old Springfields. And shooting the "mild mannered" factory loads they were pussycats as far as recoil.  I don't think the handi 45-70 is very much different. I don't own one ,YET, but I have shot them and the recoil doesn't seem to be more than a 20 ga. pump to me.  But from a bench even that is felt. :grin:

[MarkA]

Just ordered my .45-70 and want to get a LimbSaver!  Does anyone have the exact size/model number to order.  Got it in the plain Walnut stock.  Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[quickdtoo]

The small grind to fit #10541 will fit...

http://limbsaver.com/limbsaver/firearms/grind2fit.aspx

[MarkA]

Thanks for help, calling Sims for LimbSaver when they open!

[Mulegunner]

Off the bench you start to notice it in 3 shots.  Offhand is not really bad...shooting at deer....well you never even hear the gun go off :grin:

[.308]

How bad really is the recoil of a .45-70 handi-rifle?

With 300 gr. factory and handloads mine feels like something between a .410 3" and a 20 ga. 2 3/4" field load. But with a  home cast lead 500 gr. at around 1400-1500 fps (by manuals, no chronograph) in my synthetic handi with iron sights it feels about like my 12 ga. 3" magnum #4 Federal Premiums with 2 oz. of shot in my 870. You know you've shot it. This is offhand, I'd imagine from a bench you'd really feel it.  :oops:

[glock29]

My NEF 45/70 with factory 300 or 405gr loads is very tame recoil-wise; about like a 150gr .308 in a typical bolt-action.

With my max handloads of a 350gr Hornady RN over a casefull of H4198 for 2300+ fps, it kicks like an angry mule !

It is actually worse than my CZ550 Safari Magnum in .458 Lott !!!

[NE Hunter]

This is probably my next rifle, but I was wondering how hot you can load for it.  I usually don't push my loads but in the interest of safety can it take the Ruger loads or just up to the Marlin

[tscott]

Joel, Thanks for calling me on this one.... I'm not a range guy... Maybe twice a year to check zero. I hunt a lot, and could care less about
caliber comparisons. I have a number of fine deer rifles, they all are tuned to me not particularly how fast, or energy, etc. So I'm happy.
I enjoy, and learn a lot from the folks here. I shot my 45/70 open sights 3 times just to be sure that the NEF sights would work for me. It came from the factory right on at 75yds...Light recoil (coreloks). I wanted an
open sight rifle, so the 45/70 is it. Don't know when I will get a chance to use it, as I have a hard time hunting without my Sav. 99f .300...(1955)! Again, thanks for the gut check! Scotty
Oh, I did do surgery on that 2 x 4 stock!

[Sourdough]

My son started shooting his 45-70 when he was 13, and he is small for his age.  He thinks factory ammo is for plinking.  He handloads, and with 300 grain loads, using the lever gun loadings from the Speer manual.  As I was saying his 300gr loads are pretty hot and are not bad for recoil.  Comperable with my 30-06 Handi.  BUT!!!!! his 400gr loads are a differant story.  They hit me like my .338.  Lots more recoil.

[Greysky]

I own a twelve gauge Ithaca Model 37 riot gun that kicks as hard as the proverbial mule with buckshot, or slug loads. After test firing various brands of slugs one day, I painfully discovered I was not able to lift my arm above the horizontal the next morning. The only reason I keep this miniature tank gun around is for home defense.

Last year I purchased a .243 NEF that my wife and I both enjoy shooting. After tweaking this relatively inexpensive but attractive rifle a bit, I developed the right handloads for it. I am proud to relate that this Handi is a real dandy with very little recoil.

While I do possess a nostalgic interest in the 45/70 Government, I will not purchase a firearm in any caliber that delivers heavy recoil. I'll leave the heavyweights to those who don't seem to mind pain as much as I do.

[elyod56]

i reload for the 444 marlin and the 45-70. my marlin 444s does well with some pretty warm loads using the 265 hornady sp @ 2275fps. i never figured out the recoilo energy , kinda like a 12 gauge, though my friends give me the  :roll:with the 45-70 the heaviest load i tried is the winchester factory load of  300 gr hp @1700fps gives a pretty good thump but nothing to write home about. i handload some 405 gr lbt at @1400fps and i think the recoil a little less. i will eventually get some jacketed 405gr bullets and turn up the velocity to @1700 fps. probably have some pretty short shooting sessions.

[Murf]

I used to shoot a Handi Rifle in 45-70 using black powder loads of 70 grains under a 387 gr cast bullet. The rifle had been restocked with heavy walnut, had the fore end spacer replaced with one made of brass and wore a flat brass butt plate.  There were days in which I would shoot a double round of silouettes with sighters meaning 90 to 100 rounds with most shots sitting or even prone. Yes it did lead to bruises but was not impossible to do. The gun did weigh more than factory standards and had a wider than standard butt plate. Velocity with 70 gr of black and the 387 gr bullets was chronnied at 1175 fps so it qualified as a light load.

[fortress49]

I just shot my 45-70 for the second time this past Saturday.  I have a Sims recoil pad on it and I have a mercury recoil reducer in the butt stock (8 0z).  The 405 gn Remington "trapdoor" loads felt like they had less recoil than most 30-30's that I have shot.  I also shot some hotter Federal 300 gn (1830 fs advertized).  These felt like they had a bit more recoil than most 30-30's that I have shot.  Certainly less than 30-06 or .270!  So, even the hotter load was mild and I could have shot all day with the good pad and recoil reducer.  This was from a bench.  If I hunt, I will remove the recoil reducer to save weight since most say that recoil is not felt when in a hunting situation.

Matt