Author Topic: How long do you take before the shot? (Read 1545 times)

flintski · « **on:** January 04, 2005, 12:34:06 PM »

What I 'm getting to is how long do you hold before the shot? I longer I hold the more I wobble. I need advice on breath control also. I seem to hold my breath until after the shot. I was once told by a Cal. state pistol champion that if you haven't pulled the shot off at the count of 5 them restart all over. It seems to work for my pistol silhouette shooting but not so, so far with the rifle. What do you guys do?
Graybeard suggests to start high over the target then bob up and down over the target and then pull when coming into the shot either up or down. Lets have some suggestions for me. I haven't shot in a regular match yet, but I do a lot of dry firing at the back fence. Looking forward to starting matches here this spring. As u can c eye need hep.
flint

GeoNLR · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2005, 03:48:39 PM »

my "hold time" now. My air rifle is givving me real valuable insight to what is going on with my misses.

I will preface all of this by saying there are far more valuable sources of info here than I.

What seems to work best for me is to stead the dot just to the left of the animal. Slowly, and I mean slow-not like the moves you made on the ladies when you were young- move the dot toward the animal. If all goes well you should see a steady dot creeping toward paint. As soon as it on paint, let you subconscience mind break the shot for you. If the movement toward the target starts going too fast, work on the dicpline to not break the shot and restart the process with a fresh supply of air. As far as breathing goes, I like to take in and exhale a deep breath before I even shoulder the rifle. Then take in a second while shouldering and exhale as it comes to my locked in pointion when I'm starting to acquire the target. Then I tak the thrid and final inhale and hold it until I break my shot...

Just my 3 cents worth!

Chicken George

flintski · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2005, 04:19:02 PM »

thanks that will help, now how about someone else's ideas.

flint

SteelEye · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2005, 04:48:06 PM »

I strongly suggest you buy and read (many times) David Tubb's High Power Rifle. He discusses, in great detail, breathing, shot release and many, many more topics, all of which will improve your shooting.

ajj · « **Reply #4 on:** January 05, 2005, 04:10:46 AM »

I seem to be making progress with a routine which involves a relaxation period before each shot. I adjust Natural Point of Aim, relax the muscles to the extent possible, get my eye the correct distance from the scope, position my finger on the trigger, ALL while continuing to breath and making no effort to aim at the target. Then, when all the prep work has been done, I try to concentrate on a spot on the target and bring the dot to it at the natural breathing pause, that is, on exhale. This is pretty basic but I don't remember seeing it in print and I've wasted a lot of time trying to get ready for the shot while holding my breath. Get in position first and don't think about shooting while you do so. Save your concentration on the target for actually taking the shot.
It takes practice to learn to do it quickly, so that pulling the rifle to the shoulder triggers a relaxation response, etc. One of the things that makes silhouete special is that we don't have much time. We have to learn to get on with it, without rushing or feeling pressured. In airgun practice, I sometimes do a session where I get out of and back into position after each shot, practicing finding NPA quickly and efficiently.
Something from "New Position Rifle Shooting" that I like and haven't seen elsewhere: Don't work on "pulling" the trigger. Think of the trigger finger as ready and trying to move at all times and your effort being spent on INHIBITING it. To take the shot, you remove that inhibition and "LET" the finger move. Again, takes practice, but it eliminates jerking when it works. Good luck and good shooting.

scorlett · « **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2005, 04:22:44 AM »

Obviously, holding too long is always bad.

Try reading (or re-reading) this article: http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/aug96secrets.html and especially note the last section by professor Lawton. Then go read this article that develops the drill further: http://www.zediker.com/articles/zcomlawt.pdf

I'd suggest that while Mr. Tubb's book is an invaluable aid and good reading as well, his approach to taking the shot can be misunderstood by novice shooters (especially if you're using a scope and shooting at big silhouette targets instead of 10 rings). I think you will improve faster by working on your hold more than on your approach.

At some stage you may be able to hold well (slow and small) and develop a control that will let you become pretty stable near the center then very slowly move to the center and break the shot at the same moment. But, for now, I'd suggest that you concentrate on refining your hold.

Develop a stable position, good natural point of aim, etc... Then as you hold, use Lanny Bassham's mantra from With Winning in Mind, "slower, smaller". As you're waiting for the trigger to break, make this the only thought in your conscious mind.

Also, before you shoot, change your objective from "breaking the trigger at the right time", to "getting into my small, stable hold". If the first is your objective, when you fail, it gets recorded on the score card (and reinforced in your mind!). When the second one doesn't happen, you get to start over and do it again. When it does, you'll find plenty of time to break the shot.

Next, go buy yourself an old target air rifle, enough said... Well not quite, get Ways of the Rifle too.

Sam

CB · « **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2005, 05:28:27 AM »

I'm guessing about 4-6 seconds the shot is gone (when I'm actually hitting anything) any longer than that with shallow breathing or held breath and the visual thing is a distortion and I've found it's best to at least come partially out of the hold, breath and then get back in. Of course I don't take my own advice and try to extend the hold just a second or two longer to get the shot---sometimes you hook up, most times it's a miss. I've also noticed a little voice in my head many times that says "GET OUT AND START OVER" just before I break a bad shot, gotta learn to listen!!!
The above time is for me, if you're a younger stronger better cardio, etc. your time may be extended, (I smoked all my life?, definate effect!!)
Enjoy the shooting, have fun at the matches, progress will come. No skill of this nature comes in a season or two, unless you train incessantly.
CB

lucho · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2005, 05:34:41 AM »

I have read and heard many different numbers but all seem to say around 6 to 10 seconds is how long you have to get off a good shot.

At nationals last year I timed a few of Augustine's shots. After he got the rifle into position he took about 9 to 12 seconds before he fired the shot.

Granted this is an approximation but these numbers seem to be about right.

Lucho

flintski · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2005, 06:49:13 AM »

Thank you, thank you.....some very good advice, I liked the articles, alot of good information. On the equipment list of the champions I see all have Leupolds 24 or higher scopes, intresting. Guess I'll head towards Sportsmens Warehouse and look at scopes.
thanks again

billdncn · « **Reply #9 on:** January 10, 2005, 08:14:42 AM »

Depends on what my trigger finger is doing that particular day. Or I should say what my Sako's trigger is doing. It's so inconsistent. Some shots feel like 6lbs and some 6ozs, I'm working on that now. If I'm struggling that day (hold just not comfortable or shot not breaking when I want it to, or soon there after) I force myself to bring it down and start over. This has helped me a lot. On a good day (HA! Like that happens) I would say 6-12 seconds. Shallow breathing has helped me a lot also. I'm amazed at how many shooters I hear gasping for air after they break there shot.
gotta go, At work

Bill

Arizona Jake · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2005, 09:14:33 AM »

Bill,

Can you share what it is you are doing to improve the consistency of your Sako's trigger with the rest of us?

Regards, :cb2:

billdncn · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2005, 11:20:57 AM »

Arizona Jake

All I'm doing right now is searching for the perfect trigger return spring. I found a slightly lighter spring today @ work with the same I.D. but a little larger O.D. Hopefully the larger O.D. will not allow it to move around a much in the trigger housing. Don't know if this will make a difference. Just my way of thinking. Fortunately the spring I found is tightly coiled on the ends and all I had to do is sand a little off the OAL to make it the same as the Factory spring. Perhaps a little shorter.

The last handful of pulls I just made where within 2ozs. of each other. If it stays this way that would be great! The problem I've been having is after I adj. the pull to where I wanted it (approx. 2lb 2ozs.), and shoot a match, or after a range session it would get heavier and end up being as much as 6ozs. off sometimes. I don't know if this is common, or if you, or others have the same problem. But, it sure is getting on my nerves!

I guess the next thing to do is either disassemble and stone the sear/trigger areas, or take it to a competent riflesmith.

flintski · « **Reply #12 on:** January 10, 2005, 03:24:30 PM »

Bill......

How do you like your Sako? is it a 94 sporter?

I have a chance at getting a Sako 94 sporter or a Kimber HS model. A friend is given me a real good deal that I can't turn down. Both used but very good condition at about he same price. I plan on looking at them this week and to make my decision then, right now I'm favoring the Kimber with a Weaver 24T scope. The scope comes with the deal..

Bill

billdncn · « **Reply #13 on:** January 10, 2005, 09:48:26 PM »

I wish someone would make me an offer I can't refuse..............oh, yes, the P94S Hunter. A very fine shootin iron (hey did I make a rhyme?). I replaced the barrel with a Lilja. It's defentally a shooter. I just received a T24 myself. I think it and I will be friends for a long time.

I really like the stock configuration of the Finnfire for off hand shooting. The palm swell, the flush magazine, and the semi-high comb help aid me in Hunting rifle. Some people bark at the polymer, plastic, or whatever is used on it. Only time will tell on this issue. Lightest magazines I've ever held!

I have also owned two Kimbers in my past. An older 82, and a HS. Both where very nice, and unlike others I never really had any problems with either. Except finding magazines for the old 82. The HS balanced very well and was a shooter too! The extractor was a little inconsistent (sometimes shells would dribble out of the ejection port), but other then that I liked it a lot!

Best of luck with which ever route you go!

Bill

billdncn · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2005, 10:23:15 AM »

Sorry Flintski.
I think we kinda got off the subject here.

Bill

Gringo Grizzly · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2005, 02:49:37 AM »

Getting back on the subject.

A good source - easy to read and fun - is the Jim Owens shooting series.
You can merely check this out on line and not buy anything.
I think it's called "Sight Picture, trigger control, and the Big Lie" or something like that.
He has a good - and short - section on breath control and the shot.

However, I have a problem with how SOON to shoot.

I'm wondering if some of the other vets out there can relate to this.
My problem is often getting a solid hold on the animal almost immediately.
For some reason, I've never been able to release the shot within those few (or less) seconds!

It's probably mental, but for some reason I then get off of the animal and come back again, at which time my mind allows me to take the shot.

To get around this, I sometimes intentionally start off the animal and then steer in, but geez, I'd like to take advantage of that early good hold!
Gringo

dave imas · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2005, 05:01:45 PM »

For Freaking EVER! I take sooooo long I've had competitors done with all 5 shots before I break the trigger once. I'm so used to hearing 3... 2... 1... on the range i get nervous if i don't. i've had to break 4 highpower chicken shots in the last 12 seconds of a bank. not something i recommend.
dave

DanDeMan · « **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2005, 08:57:49 PM »

Let me be perfectly clear, DaveI is the slowest shooter I've ever had the pain of spotting for. We are talking very painfully slow. How about counting off 10, 9, bang, 8,7, 6, bang, 5, 4, 3, 2, BAND, 1, ALTO FUEGO, ALTO FUEGO....all three turkeys in the dirt. Well that was spotting for DaveI at HP turkeys a few years back. Man, I gotta say, never again, never again:-) You could go cross-eyed looking through the scope for 1.5 minutes before he breaks his first shot. I'd need a major dose of Prozac, not Pawel, to spot for Dave again:-)

jneihouse · « **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2005, 08:58:58 AM »

One must remember that silhouette shooting is like another aspect of life...Premature trigulation will always bring about projectile dysfunction.

Hornetx60 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2005, 12:07:24 PM »

I'm with you DaveI. I'm not pullin the trigger until the dot is on the animal and stayin there. I thought the object was to hit them all!!! I thought I was slow but it sounds like you are even more .....deliberate.....(ya that's the word)...Than I am. It is amazing though when ya have to how fast and accurate you can shoot when the timer starts pushing you...at least on a good day!

ajj · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2005, 08:25:10 AM »

Gringo: I have exactly the same experience you do. Good sight picture early but apparently I'm just not "ready" to break the shot in reaction to that picture. It's one of them mental things. Got to be a way to train for it. Maybe my prep period before I try to move the dot to the target will bear fruit in that area.
Dave: What's going through your mind and what are you seeing in the scope while all that time passes?
jneihouse: You need a little time off.

jneihouse · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2005, 11:36:13 AM »

Sometimes the lines in life do get a little blurred for me.....There's just something about that thumbhole stock...
John